WIP Beta released The Tennessee USA Roane County 0.71 Beta Discussion/Suggestion/feedback Thread 19.3.1

I knew you had to have some quality controller among your hardware....

I retired my trusty 9260 this summer to replace it with a 9266+BBU. Aside from the better processor and twice the cache, it's much better optimized for SSDs, despite not having TRIM enabled still. It's also 4k-capable.

At this point in time, I would recommend the 9266/7 (pcie 2.0) or 9370/1 (same thing in pcie 3.0) instead of the 9260.

While it's still a beast of a card in terms of RAID types and number of drives it can manage (256!), its cache is a bit small, a bit slow by today's standards and it's not optimized for the more recent drives.

At any rate, anyone going for those RAID solutions should be careful to have a LOT of airflow. Those cards are designed for 1U racks with about 80CFM of airflow. While they can work @ 95 celsius, the rest of your components most likely can't.

The 9210/11 HBAs create much fewer calories, also a thing to consider.

 

Yes the 9211 is a great card for people who just want to add ports but want to have a lot of options if they wish to do more then just add a few drives for a backup or file server. The intel chip on it won't conflict with the motherboard and offers great speed and management interface with enough options to keep most users happy. Does decently with SSD's also.
The 9260... sure it's getting tired-feeling compared to 9266, 67, and 9370, but the price was right. I don't really care if it's blow-the-doors-off-fast, heck, one or two ssd(s) on that card alone is faster then a pile of average consumer drives so who can complain.
I don't need lots of cache memory as drives have caps on them if the power goes out for the cache on the drive, data isn't lost. So to that end not going to bugger with the backup unit battery that will eventually go bad in due time, just for a measly RAM amount 1/100th of the size of 1 SSD to have power and use. Sure maybe it would be a few % faster but it's not worth it for me to bother with.
Regardless, LSI doesn't exactly slap their name on junk, so if it's an LSI it's GOOD. For what it's worth, Highpoint is good too.
I wanted to send this sooner, but my brain wasn't up to the task - it kept blanking on me (basically derailing my entire train of thought, throwing it off the cliff, down into the canyon, and taking all my short-term memory with it). Sorry about that one, but yes, taking some needed time off here from mapping and did get a tooth pulled today (no pain pills for those that need them, due to national abuse/addiction epidemic, so it'll be slightly more pain than usual for a day or two here, if only in a different spot).

 

Thats weird, it doesnt go above 60% when maxed out settings..

Edit: Its not stable 60 fps, but its a big map ofc.
Edit2: It might not even be the size of the map even.. U have a RX 480 with lowest 30 fps? I guess where in the same spot then.

Some maps are just too detailed. My sister has the RX 480 too and she runs everything max. Even insaneguz map (the insane testing) she gets easy 50-60 stable fps. But my gpu is at 40-55 unstable.

Edit3:
"Radeon R9 380 will give LOW fps with max settings, because you're filling up the 4gb frame-buffer"

Hoho, your really wrong here. First of all, the highest it goes is 95% at GPU. The fps avg is 55 and the 4 gb, as i said.. 95%. But you could be right, but atleast at the end you put "not trying to be rude". From the comment it did look like it, but i guess its just your experience with this card

 

Ouch!
Have a good recovery, Bob (as much as you can, anyway).

 

"Don't give a bad review for a massive map being hard on fps, you should expect that going in due to the nature of how big this map is."

You what mate? Unstable fps comes from most maps in general when we are talking about BeamNG.Drive. If my experience with a map is bad, theres going to be a negative review, or one less star for what matters. I have good fps on massive maps like Utah, Insane Testing etc. But the fps drops several places which makes the recording & experience terrible. Theres several other reasons to give less stars with bugs no needing to mention. But sure think its the gpu anyway, because everyone seems to know every gpu these days anyway..
--- Post updated ---

Im just curious, but why do you have DDR3 ram? Also whats your ram speed? GPU looks sweet but DDR3?

 

There's not that much useful real-world difference between DDR3 and -4, performance-wise.
Benchmarks are a different story but, again, not representative of actual performance.
He hasn't listed frequency/timings but being Hyper-X sticks, it's likely comfy.

 

Configured a larger pagefile, from auto which was currently 14xxx mb to 20xxx mb, does NOT crash more for me (usually crashed within 10min and win10 blamed the GPU), though i did also get a new GPU driver update although ive never had any differences with the updates.. Also configured windows to not resolve exhausting issues, just detect and troubleshoot.

Been getting an hour here and there for the trailer home, starting to get the basics done. Havent really looked into texturing in preparation for BNG but material wise ill look whats available and probably work with that.

Looks like this atm:

 

If its overclocked to 3200~ its OP, but DDR4 runs some better, but as you say, not really that much difference..

Edit: removed something, beamng forum wasnt supposed to do that.

 

The reason I mentioned it is so that you keep an eye on the frame-buffer there, sometimes I have exceeded it, sometimes I have not.
I believe switching cars a few times or more-so having several cars in play, especially all near one another, could lead you up into the 4100mb range (obviously with 4096mb being the limit). I had a 4gb card and was testing this whilst working on the map A YEAR ago and was testing, one of my tests (with only this map during the game and editing session, mind you), and hit 4099mb. I could chalk that up to the 0.8.x that was out at the time (0.8 game version), or it could happen more often. Just keep an eye on it. That card had bad fans (worse than this turned out to be, and this one lasted 9 months before I went APE @#$%!!! on the manufacturer who tried to get me to 'reinstall Windows 7' for mechanically bad fans - IDIOTS - but that's another story). Just keep an eye on it especially if your FPS drops by like half real suddenly, not a slow ease into low FPS like driving into town would do.

My lowest 30fps is in Kingston with minimum reflections (set 100~300 meters, lowest draw calls, faces per frame or whatever), shadows on, etc. Granted, Ryzen is quicker than the intel 4xxx (and 6xxx) clock for clock, but with this machine here running 4.4ghz (higher = nuclear ball-burning heat), it shouldn't be more than 10% faster or slower than this (should be close), so I don't see anything aside of video that could be any issue. Just make sure to feed that Ryzen the fastest 'Samsung B-die Ram' in dual channel you can afford to feed it, and it will 'love you long time' (just a friendly tip from a youtuber who does crash-vids with my map and has a Ryzen 1700x, which he tested against his 6900k, clock for clock, the Ryzen is quicker by 10% in Beamng with 2933 cl-16 RAM).

Yes this map is huge. Yes this map is very detailed. No I can't really section it off better as it'd throw all the point in making a 'as close to real life as possible' map based on real terrain and a 98% accurate road layout right out the window. I wish I could, it'd surely run better, but tech will catch up more than me adding detail at the snail's-pace this seems to be going. Again, I wish I could, so for now, try turning off shadows or whatever, or just keeping those reflections off, or if all else fails, open main.level.json in the /levels/southernhighway directory, and find the farviewdistance or farclipplane or whatever it's called, it's far-something-or-another, and set it down from it's just-less-than-2km distance to about 0.6~1.5 km and you will have a smoother map.
I will do this when I have the time in the next week, unless I forget.
My memory hasn't been the best as I've been in utter agony the last 10 days. I went through a VERY difficult extraction, the amount it swelled this morning almost sent me to the ER. I have had bones broken and not had that pain. On the bright side, I can't feel my back or migraines at all when I am going thru the pain so - glass half full as always.
Ticked me off because I wanted to finish painting my new fender & hang it on my Pessima today (yes, IRL, I have a Corolla, which I named the Pessima, it's so getting the name on the back changed). I got a new aftermarket grill for it and everything (it was 24$ why the heck not, and the old one is oxidized and hideous but in good physical shape).

With new game versions, the map performance should improve. Don't fret if it runs poorly now. In due time it will get better. Slowly I will get LOD's done for models, and cue them to stick around longer (which is also modified by the detail sliders, less detail = less object detail at X distance). This way you won't have models looking super fancy unless you're within 300 feet instead of a whole block which is 500-600 feet, which means the game needs to work with less models because it's less area, exponentially less (about a quarter to one fifth). This should help people - especially folks with Ivy-Bridge intel, AMD APU/FX/Excavator or Bulldozer cores or older juggle everything.

There's lots of detail on this map. Just Lots and Lots of detail. I'm not satisfied with making this look 'only just as good' as other AAA games, I want it to look BETTER, but I am also realistic and not above asking for help with that. So if folks can model, and you can make something - anything - that belongs in a city or town, feel free, I can use anything.

And thanks to those who wish me the best with these teeth issues - I have soft teeth + I don't take the worlds best care of them to begin with + my wisdom teeth grew in at 90 degrees and 115 degrees the wrong way jamming all my upper teeth together and breaking the lion's share of them... yeah... it's bad. I have exactly 6 teeth left - but I can sure still kick a rice cake's butt, eat cookies or chips, things like that, when I am hungry. Pretzels are a total no-go though. So take care of your teeth people, while you still have them to take care of. And if any of y'all are due for a tooth extraction, etc, or other extensive oral surgery - get a damn Orthodontist or Dentist that prescribes some sort of pain meds - if you can find one - they won't do it here because they are 'afraid of the government'. I have to suffer because of idiots and the addiction crisis. Nevermind I could go down the road for 5~10 minutes in ANY town ANY where and buy them (and break the law doing so, so I won't be doing that, I am not a criminal), for less than I could go to a doctor for... oh no (yes, it's cheaper than going to a doctor and paying to fill a script if the insurance did not cover it), now you can't get them when you get a tooth ripped out. THIS DRUG WAR ISN'T WORKING. IT ONLY HURTS LEGITIMATE PEOPLE like me who sit here in agony ready to cry - and I'm 35 (physically disabled in multiple ways) and I shouldn't be in tears in pain. I have been burned by red hot steel (work accident) and had a chunk of flesh a quarter inch deep removed from the back side (tender side) of my upper left arm and not had for one whole day the pain I had in a mere minute; for hours, with this tooth issue.

So yeah, sorry for the rant, but I feel a little (0.1%) better right now. Luckily, the rest of my teeth are pretty golden, and were spared issues thus far - knock on wood.

Good you resolved your issue with the small pagefile in Winblows Atleast you can USE your computer now!
There's plenty of textures in the /art/buildings and especially /art/buildings/eca .
Lots of wood-cladding (wood siding I think), or 'clapboard' textures, trims, etc.

There are shiplap siding textures in there too. Some of the homes use it. It's one of the last siding textures in the materials.cs.
The trailer does look beautiful though. If you make/use skirting, you might be able to just turn the siding texture sideways and use white siding, see how it looks (though, if possible, call it something different, or dupe the texture manually and call it skirting, so I can change it seperately).

Thanks a million though for your hard work, the trailer(s) will definitely get used. Even if you only end up making 3~4 models, or heck, even only one, I will use it and re-skin it where possible to give some differences.

There's real world difference when the MHZ speed increase is greater than the cas-latency increase vs DDR3 or DDR4 Jedec 2133mhz. DDR4 wasn't so much a speed increase here, it was lower voltage (more volts = better performance, so obviously, higher cas latency which means less speed, with lower volts), so you don't burn the intel IMC (integrated memory controller) circut out when using over 1.35~1.4v as often happens with folks overclocking and also often on DDR3L skylake board when DDR3 (non-L) is stuck on it. DDR4 is just recently (as of the last few months) moving past the 4000mhz barrier on select B-die sticks to really strut it's stuff.

Yeah, thanks. Last one was a breeze, this one had remnants of an infection, and keeps swelling up.
I literally had to clamp down on my top and bottom of my mandibular region (lower jaw for less medically inclined), and clamp my hand there like a vice grip for 20~30+ minutes this morning. Had to do it again this evening and let me tell you, when I let go it pulsed (in pain) a few times - but that and meds for swelling - have helped SUBSTANIALLY make a difference. A night and day difference.
It's not dry socket, I really don't get that. That would be even worse, if that were possible (more like the same pain), but the swelling, that's hell in a hand-basket.
Thankfully, yes I was smart enough to hoard antibiotic this past few months as the doc said 'oh you don't need anymore' and yes I do because it's STILL infected. I know when it's infected silly (and he acknowledged that). The old saying applies here, "No one knows your body better than you", and if you leave infection go, you end up with tissue necrosis and eventually exposed bone, blood infection, and multiple organ failure, which can lead to DEATH. Not to scare anyone, but yeah, that's why I had to get this taken care of as it'd quickly get out of hand!
I spent about 30~45 minutes or more on WebMD and some other sites this morning, definitely swelling and not dry socket.
Thankfully in 45 minutes of reading I only hit 1 term I could not decipher without looking it up, so I guess that's a good thing when you read stuff written by doctors for doctors. Pronouncing all of those terms, on the other hands, heh, well let's just say I won't be giving a speech on it in public anytime soon (never-mind the tooth).

Sorry for the book guys - but thanks for everyone's support.

I AM VERY SORRY IF I HAVE BEEN SHORT, BLUNT, OR COME OFF MEAN A BIT, SORRY, VERY SORRY, BELIEVE ME ON IT, OR DON'T. I HAVE BEEN IN AGONY THE LAST 10 DAYS. I WILL BE FINE, IT WILL JUST TAKE TIME.

Thank you all again for not turning this into a flame war like often happens in the Steam forums.
I will get back to mapping when I feel a bit better. For now I will spend my time writing news and government representatives/ senators/ and legislators about how the damn doctor or dentist can't even keep me out of agonizing pain because of some stupid drug war. Yet I could buy pain pills of the street in 5 minutes *if* I was willing to break the law (and I'm not). Why can the criminals get them, but legitimate folks have to suffer?

Intention: So the drug war is supposed to curb the illegal activity, but not the legal activity.
Result: The drug war has not changed, or only marginally changed illegal activity, but has significantly curbed or made next-to-impossible access to pain medicine on a temporary or permanent basis by legitimate folks in chronic or temporarily agonizing pain.

Yet the pharma companies are making billions upon billions a year. Why? Because the politicians all have stock in them and let the street-level dealers have unfettered access to a black market of pills while folks turn and look away, or at-least don't know or pretend not to know. It keeps the prison machine going too, it keeps Pharma's income going and the gov't can claim that it's trying to keep them off the street by stiffening regulations that only keep the legitimate users from getting medicine from legitimate doctors.
Man this country is messed up.
Really messed up.

I hope someone fixes it soon, but I have little hope as all recent presidents have played the stock market and in-turn played their leadership role to the tune of the former. Money over lives, what else is new.

Stay safe people.

 

Dam, your current life situation sucks... But to cheer you up, I have a rare genetic bone disease which has set itself in my jaw 2,5 years ago & been swelling up my jaw bone, jaw joint & my cheek bone. I was getting swollen on the jaw every second week, with huge as hell pain that made me roll into a ball & cry from it, I was taking 8 different antibiotics in a year + steroids & lethal amount of painkillers (the worst thing is that only one type of them was helping, so I even ended up taking 10 painkillers a day, where the "usual" for me was 4-6... That lasted for over a year). But 1,5 ago I finally got a miracle remedy for my disease, which was a medicament I end up getting shot into my blood every 3 months to stop the swelling & huge pain. So far it's working like a charm (been sober off painkillers for over a year now), but soon I will get the last dose, so I dunno what I will do after that, since this thing isn't an actual medicament for it, instead it's just a "stopper"... Through out the time, my teeth have been breaking/chipping off, so now I lost 4 teeth from my second set & the rest is either damaged or has a small hole in them. Also, the part of my jaw bone that was affected by the disease, has turned into fibers on the inside, so there's a quite a risk I can break it, which would be fatal, since surgeons wouldn't be able to clap it together... The same goes for my jaw joint which can popup & won't be able to be put back into it's place, since that area was too swollen & damaged by the disease. So my current ability to open my mouth is ~50% of what it normally is. The inflamation state in my body is way higher that what i would normally be, so I have constant fever, which sucks because I feel "too hot" all the time. I wish you the best in your current problems, hopefully they will be gone soon.

P.S. I know this is a map thread, but just wanted to write that I feel your pain









As for an actual bug report...

1. All my onscreen apps flash/freeze constantly when driving on the map

Spoiler: Video of it (watch the gauges & map)

2. There is a place on the map where a waterfall meets a dirt road & creates mud... It was 95% impossible to get through it with a Hopper Custom since it was floating

Spoiler: This place

 

@Sithhy™

I fixed this by disabling the mini map app. I know it isn't much in terms of fixing the mini map, but it did allow the rest of the apps to function as intended.

 

nothing wrong with a water crossing! that's why all my configs have snorkels

 

The game isnt lagging, but the loading of the game is lagging. When i drive it lags a second, then nothing and repeat.

When looking from front of vechile, no lagg at all.

The GPU is at load with 50-60% and the ram usage is only 6 GB. (DDR4 2933 MHz) so it isnt using up the ram / vram of the gpu x)

Would love to play more on this map if it wasnt for this weird "lagg" / "bug", will upload vid.

 

@bob.blunderton
Best wishes on getting better - oral surgery is no fun at all! Take it easy, you have earned it.

Sorry about the lack of pain meds as well - that is very unfair.

 

I'm asking because I am not a map creator. Can a map be expanded (enlarged)?
And if yes is this one going to be (I know it is massive already)

 

Thanks buddy, I wish you the best too, yes, still in pain from an extraction on friday, so I hadn't been on here for two days. Tons of responses to write now.
I will reduce the water density again, as it was reduced a bit this time as it causes big tires to float since it was changed in the base game + it was changed in my map before the base game changed it, so now it's way off. I fixed it a bit last time but have shyed from changing it too much.
The gauges are freezing up because you're using the HUD minimap. Please use the in-dash GPS. I currently have a bug report submitted as I think the map is too big and too detailed for the map to process. Just shut off the HUD minimap for now while on my map and use the dash one and your problem will resolve. Check your task manager program in Windows (CTRL+SHIFT+ESC to bring it up), for a stuck beamng.UI.exe app, as it can get stuck when you close the game, so check it after you close the game now and then, it can eat a lot of ram after a while as it has a memory leak if left on overnight.

Yes, it can be in the future, and may just be a little bit, but not too much. Only the highway will be extended.
Hopefully in the future they can implement map transitions, so when you drive down the highway far enough, you will be placed in another map when you get to an edge.
I will be re-doing the terrain when we get tiled terrain support so I can make the map more detailed and have a finer terrain resolution instead of one big stretched terrain. Making the map bigger will result in more RAM use though so I am not in a hurry to do it as because right now it JUST fits into an 8gb RAM equipped system okay.

Please do a demo video of it lagging. I am not sure why it is.
Try turning off shadows, then making sure your page file is on (if it is already, and it can grow to 20gb size, okay should be fine).
Make sure reflections are off if they're not, turn them off completely as they hit FPS hard.
I don't know what else to say, maybe check and see if your CPU is heat-throttling when the physics processing kicks up.
I have not heard of Cheiftec brand power supply, is this new? Do you have any issues in any other games?
Run the performance stat screen and the click in the corner, hide this screen for 10 seconds, drive around until it comes back. Then press alt+0 to take a picture (o vowel not number 0) of it after it's come back. Link the picture here with the insert-image feature (once you take the picture and it pops up in the browser it's in the clipboard already by that process, paste with CTRL+V into this insert image function and it will appear on your post not as a link but a picture).
There has to be something wrong, like a driver conflict, or something overheating or not getting the power it needs (though 850 is more than plenty, even 600w with an overclock would be enough). Do definitely check things out with HARDWARE INFO application which you can get on Guru3d.com utilities section on Downloads. Check voltages and temperatures while you play.
X370-F Gaming motherboard is made by which company?
Will check back later on this.

@NewoFox thanks for the kind words, still in pain after 4+ days. No end in sight. My back AND my lower jaw are hurting, and I just got over a monster migraine last night with both of those still hurting too. I can't feel my legs/feet but i think they're cold.
I can't concentrate well at all nevermind how miserable I am mentally (Sorry if I've offended or been condescending to anyone here, it's no excuse but I have issued an official 'my bad, sorry' at-least). If it wasn't for swelling reducing meds we already have here i'd be in the hospital already. This is getting to be more than I can cope.

 

Then perhaps you should go to the hospital, to be on the safe side? Loss of sensation in the lower extremities and back pain is a pretty big leap from oral surgery. You may really want to get it checked out, in case the antibiotics you self-administered were not potent enough or the surgical site has suffered complications.

Your health has to come first.

 

Loss of feeling in extremeties is due to my back pain and nerves being pinched and over-riding the sensation of other things with pain, and pinching nerves due to disks deteriorating and slipping. Winter also make me hurt more as all of my joints are hurting, and my fingers crunching as I type, it's really getting bad the last 2 weeks.
I only used about 3 antibiotic pills I had saved up then went to the dentist, where he gave me more (I had informed him I had started them the night before), they were of the same type I was given there at the consultation. They will do no harm, and they are of the type that gets prescribed for this type of infection. I am pretty up to date on the stuff like meds etc, do regular reading on WebMD too especially if there's any doubt. Any smart person who's prone to tooth infections etc, keeps antibiotic pills around.
I have swelling from the site because of the trauma to muscle tissue and gum tissue and jaw bone due to a difficult extraction. Other extractions were nothing out of the ordinary and might as well have been spring-loaded teeth popping out on their own if they were any easier. I could have done others in my garage with a pliers, basically. This one there was lots of crunching and crackling, if it goes 7~10 days and it gets worse or does not improve, I will check in at the dentist for an x-ray, and then goto the hospital if it does not clear up. It's more difficult because it was still partly infected so hard to numb up during extraction, and the inflammed gums made it even more difficult. The infection seems to mostly have gone however the pain, and swelling associated with it, remains.
I think it took over a dozen shots of novicane (or Articane etc similar stuff) to numb me, as I am extremely chemical tolerant.
I won't die here on ya all, I just won't be the most productive this month - but 'poor Bob' needs a vacation from duty for a bit - even if that duty is modding for games/simulations, to a human brain, it's the same thing. So, all things considered, on the bright side, let us all look forward to the next Beamng update which should be out within the next 2~2.5 weeks if the developers hold to their words.
Those that are working on projects of their own are advised to keep regular backups of their work and a zipped-up copy of your game data folder in the Steam installation directory like I do. This includes folks that do youtube and stuff for a living/source of income.

Keep our fingers crossed for TILED TERRAIN SUPPORT and other things like that, right?

--Cheers!
--- Post updated ---
Also going to mention, humble bundle is doing charity event among other things. Lots of bundles folks!
https://www.humblebundle.com/
385$ of games in the care package for 30$ USD.

 

1. In city, its lagging slightly.
2. Turning off shadows only recudes the lagg by a little and the frames only go 5-9 up.
3. Reflections HIT HARD, i know :^)
4. The cpu never goes over 10% in this game. (Only WoT & C:S i know of can do this.)
5. Chieftec is from 2010, its been on the shelf for 3 years since my uncle put it in my pc. Produced in 2010, not sold anymore.
6. Not much issues on other games, only C:S where its cpu-heavy. Some on Revulution when the AAS got too heavy.
7. Performance stat screen?
8. Wrong mobo, i see i havent updated my signature, i have a B350-F x) (MSI/AMD driven tho.)

 

Yes there's a performance screen, 2 buttons below the OPTIONS (it's got a bar-chart/graph icon), on the left-side menu-bar that comes up when you hit ESCAPE key.
Take a picture of that screen after driving around for a bit so I can see what's getting maxed, if it's anything that seems odd or what-not.
Basically, this map is an 'early release', but it's not perfect, but it's huuuuuuuge, and you can help make it better by sending in that data please. You have a very good system with a CPU better than mine (I still have a 4790k from 3+ years ago), and I have only Rx 480 card, which is a little bit faster but not big leap from 380 card based on previous 'islands' chips (20% max difference?).
After you've managed to fiddle with the performance graph and put that away...
Set the settings to low and or lowest, and after you get past how darn hideous it looks, see if that runs well. It should go 200~300+ FPS if everything is working fine. Lowest goes like 300fps. I had to stop testing because my gut hurt from laughing at how 1990s it looked though. I felt like I was playing Stunts, Hard Drivin' / Race Drivin' or Stunt Race FX or Virtua Racing, etc, something to the affect.
Was pretty priceless though let me just say that much.
Does your video speed up when you press J to pause physics.
If it DOES speed up, the cpu holds you back (which it should NOT, that cpu should be easily able to do one regular pessima @ 200fps)
If it DOES NOT speed up, the video card is the culprit, on this over-bearing map, turn down video settings.
Yes you (can legitimately) hate me for it I know but unfortunately I can't make the biggest map in Beamng and expect it to run like butter-smooth. Sadly, if I was that good, I'd not be making maps here for free, I'd be getting paid for it, but I am not that good, so I'm not. I am here, lurking deep within this forum-turned-lair secretly finding ways to inflate my own stocks in hardware manufacturers make cool maps for cutting edge software.

If the Chieftec power supply outputs stable voltage within 5~10% (10% is official) of the ATX specs, then it's usually fine.
I swear by Seasonic, who is also an OEM for many other major-brands that don't always manufacture their own hardware.