General Car Discussion

Discussion in 'Automotive' started by HadACoolName, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. Potato

    Potato
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    Foolish and reckless
     
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  2. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    If you believed that simply not using ESC is enough to endanger yourself and others. You are on a slippery slope.
    Fast forward for a few decades.

    Situation:
    Fully functional autonomous vehicles are in mass production
    Someone:
    Every time I hop in my car I tune the automation off and drive manually
    You:
    That is both foolish and reckless. You are endangering yourself and others.

    Situation:
    The mass use of robots controlled by strong AI.
    Someone:
    Every time I wake up I turn off the computer and think via my own head.
    You:
    AI is better than human in nearly every aspect, why use your human brain? It's stupid, not to mention human has emotion, which might cause reckless behaviors.

    Situation:
    AI does everything better than human can do, including creative thinking
    Someone:
    I refuse to die, I have a right to live.
    You:
    You are endangering our civilization. We die for the greater good.
    That's Tesla's propaganda. Laptop battery simply doesn't work in minus 30 degree celsius.
     
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  3. NGAP NSO Shotgun Chuck

    NGAP NSO Shotgun Chuck
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    The annoying part is, everything you said is going to sound like crazy talk to most "normal" people, but "de-humanizing" the world is exactly what we're doing. Some people, it seems like their desire whether they know it or not is to turn everything gray, and "ascend" to live in a world of pure math and logic without any warmth or human emotion. Or descend, rather, because frankly that sounds like my idea of hell on earth. To what ultimate purpose they desire this, I'm not sure. Even if the end goal is unlikely to ever be "extinct humanity so robots can rule the world", the path we're on cannot lead us to any destination other than one where humans just sort of exist, and robots handle all the important stuff out of sight and out of mind. First, who is telling the robots what to do in that situation, and second, what is left for the rest of us to do?
     
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  4. CaptainZoll

    CaptainZoll
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    calm down there, sonny jim.
    there's a difference between using the OEM secondary safeguard on your car and allowing the robot overlords to enslave every facet of your being.
    if you're going to always turn off the ESC because "technology bad", then why don't you also cut the lines to the power steering and power brakes? they're training you to not rely on your physical strength!

    sure, there are situations when it's reasonable to turn off ESC, like in the snow, or when you feel like ripping a fat skid,
    but if you're driving home tired after a long day of work and some buffoon (be it a driver or an autonomous car) pulls out right in front of you, would you prefer that once you swerve to avoid it, your car catches the slide, or leave exhausted and now adrenaline-spiked you to precisely counteract and balance the slide yourself, with no warning?
    no-one's forcing you to use the driverless system, just like no-one's forcing you to be a careless driver and rely on the esc.
     
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  5. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    Well I'm not saying ESC itself is bad, and I personally drive without hitting the ESC-OFF button most of the time. What I meant is it's inappropriate to say turning off ESC is "foolish and reckless"
     
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  6. NGAP NSO Shotgun Chuck

    NGAP NSO Shotgun Chuck
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    There is an important philosophical difference between things like power steering, and things like ESC or worse, lane keep and auto brake. The former assists the driver's inputs to make controlling the car easier, but you still have to know how to control the car i.e. when and how hard to brake, steer, etc. Active computer nannies actually take the driving away from the driver.

    Even in that, there are levels. Things like ESC are "passive until called upon", so usually invisible. They take much of the skill requirement and a little of the attention requirement out of driving, but don't try to countermand the driver unless the driver starts becoming too spirited (at least one Toyota system has been noted by canyon racers to cause so much understeer that it actually makes you more likely to go off a cliff). Things like lane-keep and forward-collision-avoidance, however, actually try to reduce the amount of attention required to drive the car by taking over functions that the driver absolutely should be paying attention to themselves, like staying in lane and watching for obstacles ahead.

    Yet. ARES IV's post tells me there are people who would very much like to see that change. While there are specific situations where ESC can reduce the impact of an immediate threat - it's a miracle several people are still alive after someone's dog dashed out in front of my old Escort - I worry that this type of reasoning will be used to take fault away from a person who acts as the catalyst for an crash one way or another (letting a pet get away from them, pulling out without looking, etc.) and transfer it onto drivers who do without ESC/automation/whatever. I've spent a lot of time arguing with bicyclists, trying to explain to them why riding those things on the road is inconsiderate no matter how many rights you have or how many taxes you pay, and the endless what-about justifications they counter with would barely need to be altered to justify what I'm describing.
     
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  7. urbanestdog45

    urbanestdog45
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    just reading the last page and this page just gives so much 2001: A Space Odyssey vibes right now with Dave and HAL.

    Basically the same point, just different franchise

    *HAL opens the airlock*

    This is the only irony I see when comparing the last pages or so and 2001: A Space Odyssey. HAL was the one that became reckless and tried to kill Dave.

    Basically what HAL thought of Dave. Pretty much was like: You endanger my existence, I shall kill you now to protect myself.
     
  8. Potato

    Potato
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    Acting foolish and reckless.
     
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  9. drewr1122

    drewr1122
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    wannabe tofu delivery driver.
     
  10. skodakenner

    skodakenner
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    Is it just me or are teslas quite slow when they drive faster because yesterday there was a Model 3 dual motor infront of me wich should have killed my 300hp skoda but it didnt stand a chance past 180kph.
     
  11. combatwombat96

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    That would probably be the chronic lack of torque electric motors have. Its not enough to overcome wind speed, but also as explained in an earlier post that these things are geared for the best acceleration to make it seem like the're faster than petrol cars. So even if it can rev out 20,000 rpm, its only got one low ratio gear, eventually it wont have anymore go left. Though however 180 kays is bloody fast for something that heavy with that lack of torque, ill give it credit for that, but on the other hand were really racing one of those ?
     
  12. skodakenner

    skodakenner
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    Well seeing that my skoda does 290 or so its kinda shocking how slow they are on the top end maybe thats the reason why they want a restriced autobahn. Also we were racing in a more or less straight line wich is normally something teslas are supposed to be good but the gearing probably is the reason why they arent that good there.
     
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  13. GearHead1

    GearHead1
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    Yeah, peak torque at 0RPM through redline is just an awful curve.
     
  14. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    Most electric cars only have one gear ratio, this also explained that why electric cars have worse efficiency at highway speeds
     
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  15. skodakenner

    skodakenner
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    Just looked it up a model 3 awd is just as fast 100-200kph as my skoda wich would explain why he doesnt get away from me
     
  16. tobias95ng

    tobias95ng
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    to your vrom vrom i just wonder how deaf people feel when they see a rock concert or a historical rally or how normal people feel when they get run over by an approaching ev just as they are turning the corner.

    1. you can't just equate efficiency with environmental friendliness, that's just wrong on every line in nature it's more relevant to keep the balance and have a closed cycle plants benefit from co2 they are happy to get more of it but you have to allow them to grow and give them room to live destroying or intoxicating or just sealing the surface completely is still the worst thing you can do and that also destroys habitat for everything else.

    2.You can't blame the fuel consumption only on the car, I can also waste a lot of energy with e-cars if I constantly accelerate and brake senselessly or if I always drive fast which accelerates the energy waste due to excessive heat, or if I have the e-car parked outside so it can warm up, or if I have a ,,damn PARKING AIR CONDITIONER''.Also, coasting with e-cars anywhere outside the city center with crowds at traffic lights is easy.

    3. you also don't use the 800 hp of a Tesla and waste even more on dual electric motors and oversized heavy batteries.

    4. larger displacement reduces wear on individual parts and increases reliability, which is the main reason the car has much more potential to be modified if you're a fan of it.

    5. downsized turbo hybrids are maxed out, they don't have much potential for upgrades, also their lifespan is much lower, these cars will have major maintenance issues in about 10-15 years, for hyrids and evs it's even worse as the battery dies after about 6 years, my smartphone rached that it got below 80% last year and at that point it degenerated in about a year and I really need a new one now (luckily mine is easily replecable)

    6.Doesn't matter with the right fuel and power to liquids comes they already have 25% renewal on gas stations and that will go up
    7. hybrids have the same problems as evs in hand (although they are small and easier to fuel than a regular car)

    8.With the current mix on the grid your numbers are a far off dream, EVs become neutral at around 200,000km+ depending on the car and I don't think that will get better with the mix anytime soon as power demand increases.

    9. at least you are honest, partially recycled batteries are only up to 60% recyclable, which requires a lot of energy, and that's why most of it ends up in toxic e-waste landfills in Africa where they burn the insulation to get the materials out of it.

    10.This argument is pure nonsense as coal destroys the environment in multiple methods, not just with air pollution coal mining destroys large landscapes ec. Just like EVs do, just by production and mining, at least coal is found in concentrated form, rare earths are not, which makes it incredibly worse and is one of the main arguments I have against EVs.

    11. local air pollution with diesel bans is just a propaganda tool to get people to buy new cars again. Air pollution in European cities got better every year as cars got better catalytic converters over time and most of the problematic pollution (particulate matter) also comes from wheel and brake wear, houses, heaters, open fires, factories, the sewer system, etc. (I don't think that's the case. ) and those from the exhaust can be further reduced by synthetic fuels that make the exhaust cleaner as the fuel gets a much higher purity level, this can do much more than any catalytic converter by simply having clean synthetic fuel with no impurities (LPG is also a good example of this) and considering Co2 even in the exhaust as a local pollution problem is not an argument or do you want to stop breathing already? Guess what you produce every second 24/7 for the rest of your life with your lungs, do you want to bring that into the ring ?

    12. the amount is producible and even creates new jobs regionally and the resource does not need to be shipped around the world and does not make you dependent on oil or resource rich countries in general. Also, biofuel from algae is in the running and makes it possible to cultivate the Great Lake to farm them in very large quantities Algae in general has a great future as it really is a miracle resource and resources are the big problem we have not what kind of car we drive.
    What we drive is realy only in the mind from car companys and those dont want to see drive old cars on the streets they want to sell you at best each 5 years a new vehicle wich is absolutely nonsense. Evs are a good excuse for that the 2007 all around again but this time is the diesel the bhuuu man like in 2007 Gasoline the Buuuhuu man was and you should buy diesel.

    One big thing I see here, I see they want to make your previos bought items bad so you feel the need to buy new ones to be a good person its a crazy marketing strategy and completley logical
    creating an official problem to sell you the solution to that officially created problem is not a crime, its just to make people fall and believe in what they say for their profit.
    With enough media pressure wola money printing machine and a crank for the economy to grow even bigger.
    They just want to replace the mainstream car fleet again.

    because of the increasingly complex world, few people really think about it anymore and follow the big guys because they know what they're doing with the stuff (sure, they'll already know how to do it, but they'll also know what they're doing to their advantage)
    An electric car only makes sense near a city center when you have to deliver goods, but everywhere else it makes no sense at all and not just in the future when you dream of the ultimate battery that holds enough charge to last a lifetime, they have been dreaming of this for over 100 years and these so advanced lithium ion batteries have been around since 1992

    all in all your magic angel like EV is not environmentally friendly in the least this is complete (insert expletive here) nonsense it's just an excuse to consume new cars straight off the production line again and again and again with no values just the perfect throw away society and with this thinking you will never achieve what you claim to do it's just to soothe your own conscience and feel superior or whatever drives your thinking.
    So much for your claim, you just make emotion driven comments with no sense, if I were you I would look in the mirror. The thing that really matters is that you lower unnecessary product consumption, not that you change what you drive. You can drive what you want, but a car is a product with an expiration date on the most important part that drives it

    And a note on the last one: What is better than driving a total of 2 or 3 cars in your whole life ? (preferably fueled by bio or synthetic fuel).
    or buying the latest crap every 5 or 6 years, again and again and again and again
    What is the more resource efficient way ?

    For me, I drive my BMW 325ci M Clubsport until I cease to exist and not only me.
     
    #18556 tobias95ng, Jul 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  17. skodakenner

    skodakenner
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    Same for me ill keep my skoda till the end also driving a car from new till its broken is basically the best you can do for the Environment since you dont have to build a new car every 4 years but more like every 20 years.
     
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  18. drewr1122

    drewr1122
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    I'm definitely reading all that.
     
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  19. NGAP NSO Shotgun Chuck

    NGAP NSO Shotgun Chuck
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    At this point it wouldn't surprise me.

    German enthusiast: "Electric cars are so slow. They get off the line fast and then have no top speed."
    Environmentalist: "We have speed limits so that shouldn't matter!"
    German enthusiast: "Uh, actually we have delimited autobahns here. I go over 250 klicks every day on my way to work."
    Environmentalist: "Oh... frick. thanos snap What's delimited mean? What's an autobahn? Top speed doesn't matter if you obey the speed limit! You don't deserve a driver's license!"
     
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  20. default0.0player

    default0.0player
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    Consumerism is one of the biggest contributor to environmental issues(and your wallet as well). Why switch to electric car when your current ICE car runs perfectly normal. Making a car that lasts 15 years is better to the environment than making a so-called eco car that only lasts 6 years. The same applies to consumer devices, some maniacs often rush to the store every time a new device comes out, then immediately dump their old devices. Climate change is one of the most politicized or capitalized topic, the biggest irony is "buy XXX to celebrate Earth Day"
     
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