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Maluch JBeam rebuild

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting: Bugs, Questions and Support' started by AdamPLGames, May 17, 2021.

  1. Xupaun

    Xupaun
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    Well, As I looked on the rear suspension, it looks really like a semi trailing arm (basically the cinematics from the piccolina's rear suspension). Also, the front suspension would behave closelly enough to a double wishbone setup. As I said, it doesn't have to be perfect. Neither the vanilla ones are, lets say that you adapted the rear suspension from the picollina and the front one from the pigeon. With some finetuning, it will behave realistically any way. Trying to make the suspension the closest possible to the real thing will make you get stuck with a almost ready car with no suspension. As you said, the suspension is on the way to some improvements, so try to think like an engineer and simplify your work. Almost nobody will feel the difference between a well designed double wishbone and the exact representation of the maluch front suspension.
     
  2. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    It's already almost a double wishbone at this point, with the difference being that the lower wishbone doubles as the leaf spring and it had to get some extra stabilization points due to that. I might have to simplify the design but overall it will stay, I want it to be also simulated properly in terms of damage, double wishbone breaks way different than this. I could swap a Pigeon one as a test though. As for the rear I can try the Autobello one and see if it's better than current one, but really the only thing to do in the rear is finetuning the springs and shocks.
     
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  3. Xupaun

    Xupaun
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    That's EXACTLY what I was saying. Maybe I got a Idea for the lower front arms that may help with the realism. Anyway, the breaking part is quite difficult to imagine. I believe that on the real one, either would the whole leaf be torn from the car on a crash, or the wheel would go leaving the leaf spring behind
     
  4. Agent_Y

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    I'm not going to simulate the leaf being torn off, I just mean that with the leaf spring, the damage to the left side somewhat affects the right side too, and with an independent double wishbone it can't happen. Like the leaf spring could get misalligned and move one wheel forward and the other backward, or get shifted to the left or right which would mess up the geometry. (Of course this only happens under heavy chassis damage that changes the relative position of the leaf spring mounts)
    --- Post updated ---
    Added these and there don't seem to be any issues with the chassis holding the weight, I'll make my own loads now. At 380kg front and 670 rear the suspension is still holding on, I might need to weaken it.
    dasdasd.png
    EDIT: there WAS no issue until I started turning, well.. This suspension is definitely not supposed to do this
    dasdasaadw.png
     
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  5. Andryusha

    Andryusha
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    Stance Maluch for the win
     
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  6. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    Added more stuff, next I'll model my own loads. I think I'll add the offroad suspension back too if the normal one turns out well, it will be for amateur offroad builds while for the proper offroad version I'll use the Hopper frame and suspension.
    dwwdawsas.png
     
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  7. EozCompanyCZ

    EozCompanyCZ
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    By God that’s one overloaded Maluch in a corner lol.

    Of course, with the loaded distributed around the car it won’t be such a problem, that box just causes really high centre of mass.

    That is one hell of a load lol.

     
    #267 EozCompanyCZ, Aug 4, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  8. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    That's the BIS version, a hatchback, more capable of transporting heavy stuff inside (and on top). It has 2 cargo spaces, one under the hood like the normal one, and the other on top of the engine bay. It also has larger wheels, and like 800 other changes. The improved ability of transporting things inside and on top was made at the cost of towing abilities, it could no longer tow a trailer. You could load up to 345kg of stuff, rather than 320 like in the normal version, but the base weight of the car increased to 645kg. They made a 700cc engine for it that made 1 more horsepower and provided better acceleration, but would overheat a lot, even despite the fact that it was watercooled instead of aircooled. The BIS model was originally supposed to replace the normal one but people didn't like it because of multiple reasons: it was way more expensive (had many useless "improvements" like the rear wiper for no reason), broke down more often, was less reliable, harder to repair because you couldn't just normally access the engine like on the normal version (and like you should be able to on any normal car), it was way harder to find replacement parts because the normal version was just everywhere and this wasn't (most of the important parts from normal version weren't compatible with it), and it would also rust really fast but back then nobody could tell that. So generally it was discontinued and instead the EL version was made later.

    As of progress, I added some things:
    Loads for the road assistance config that barely fit under the hood: a large fire extinguisher and 3 rather small traffic cones. They won't fall off, there is no point of making full Jbeam for something this small, they just add weight and extra beams to simulate the fact that something is inside.
    wdasaas.png
    Added the ability to select offroad tire on spare wheel:
    wddsada.png
    And also offroad loads for roof rack:
    dasdawwd.png
    Next I'm modelling suitcases and stuff for the roof.
     
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  9. EozCompanyCZ

    EozCompanyCZ
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    Good catch, I didn’t even notice the rear hatch.

    Never really understood why the BIS even existed, it’s the typical case (during Eastern bloc times every country did so), of leaving the good prototypes behind and pushing the not so good ones into production.

    Just the idea of completely reworking the existing engine to be water-cooled is weird, even Italians decided to keep the engine air-cooled when they put it into the Panda, although it is true that modified version of the 126p BIS engine was used in the Cinquecento that replaced it ( I believe that it was only sold in Poland).
     
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  10. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    The engine had to be reowrked to save space in the rear, the radiator/cooler can be put on the side unlike the cooling pipes. (It still had the side air intakes but they were probably fake lol.) But it was dumb to stuff both the engine and the radiator in a small space on the bottom rear, it made access to the engine way more difficult for car mechanics.
    There were many more interesting rejected prototypes, mostly Polish. The only Italian one I know of was the Cavaletta, an SUV prototype:
    fiat_126_cavalletta_prototype_large_37717.jpg
    And also the Fiat 179 ESV if it even counts at the same car, so weird:
    fiat-179-prototyp.jpg
    It was a prototype designed to maximize the safety, hence the really uncommon design of the front and rear ends.
    This Czech website lists many more Italian prototypes, but idk if I trust it since I can't find anything about them anywhere else and the website is wrong about a lot of stuff of the more known models (it mistook the Polish special edition as the Italian Personal 4P model):
    http://www.revoracing.cz/cs/encyklopedie/fiat-126
    There were much more Polish prototypes than Italian. For example the Bombel, which was supposed to be a "pickup" but looks nothing like one:
    bo2.jpg
    images.jpeg
    e4e040f02d7acc3a2161574ac8c4fce1.jpg
    Another example was the Long, which was, well, a longer version, not sure what was the purpose of that:
    1.jpg
    The chassis of this longer wheelbase prototype was what the Kombi (wagon prototype) was based on:
    eb6ffc07-59a7-4c40-a9b6-7c6bafdc7cfe.jpeg
    The Kombi prototypes actually recieved the P-4 bumpers before the normal version. Not many people know that there was also a van prototype based on it:
    c5c15fa442ae0eb3d0118db111547694.jpg
    There was a front engine FWD prototype called the 650NP. It had front disc brakes and massive bumpers:
    Muzeum_Inynierii_Miejskiej_6.jpg
    Then there's the weird prototypes that don't even look like the original anymore...
    1280px-LPT_1.jpg

    1280px-Wszedolaz_1.jpg
    The first one of these was actually amphibious, it was used in several Polish movies "starring" as amohibious cars, then it was made into a military transporter:
    Lekki_pojazd_terenowy.jpg
    There was also a Diesel prototype, but I don't think there are any pictures of it. Generally there were a lot and these are probably not even all of them lol.
     
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  11. EozCompanyCZ

    EozCompanyCZ
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    There is only one picture of the Diesel prototype I believe and that's this little guy lol.



    I really like the FWD prototype, although if they kept the original front axle it would’ve handled quite weirdly.

    The this about the engine it that they could’ve kept it air-cooled and it would’ve been simpler, heck there already was a flat air-cooled version of this very engine made for the 500 Giardiniera.

    The accessibility for repairs was of course also terrible.


     
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  12. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    I didn't know about the flat aircooled engine, I have no idea why they didn't use it then. Maybe they had no permission from Fiat, remember that in Poland it was practically produced by FSM up until the 90s. (Up until then, the FL version didn't have the characteristic bigger air intakes, black roof rails/waterdrains, convertible version, any aftermarket tuning options...)
    The FWD version obviously had a different front suspension, McPherson struts I believe. Rear suspension was also a bit different, due to bigger base weight and longer overhang. Can't find any pictures of what changed there.

    I tried modelling a suitcase... If someone else did it, it would look better, now it's about as good quality as the underside textures of the car, so not really that good. I'll keep it unless someone makes a better one. I need like 2 more different models for variety.
    daasaddas.png

    Also I found this picture... Overloading the car with a ridiculous amount of stuff was real lol.
    unnamed.jpg
    --- Post updated ---
    Modelled a different suitcase and also added a recolored version of the previous one. I need to make Jbeam for this now, in various configurations: single, dual and triple suitcase on roof (different sizes for variety), straps, and a small suitcase for front cargo area.
    wdsas.png
     
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  13. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    Jbeamed a single suitcase, now it shouldn't be too hard to adapt this Jbeam to all the rest
    asddadsdwa.png
    wdwadsdd.png
    --- Post updated ---
    Various weight variants of suitcase loads: 20, 35, 50 and 60 kg. 30 is already the maximum safe load for this roof rack, I can tell why - it gets a bit unstable above that...
    dasawds.png

    EDIT: Also barely fitting suitcase in the front, replaces the spare tire
    asdafsd.png
     
    #273 Agent_Y, Aug 6, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
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  14. EozCompanyCZ

    EozCompanyCZ
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    Maluch is really looking more and more like those typical holiday pictures lol.






     
  15. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    PLEASE HELP, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO ANYMORE WITH THE SUSPENSION.
    I have replaced my rear suspension which was a mashup of other vehicle suspensions with Autobello one... Nothing changed at all except the bump stops and limiters didn't want to work anymore for whatever reason. Added the old ones back and I don't see any difference compared to the old one. Still behaves exactly the same, despite having drastically different values pretty much everywhere. Toe and camber settings still do almost nothing and I have no idea why, they are more of a vague suggestion than setting, the change is way more visible on the Autobello. Tried both Autobello and Miramar springs (torsionbar based vs beam based), Autobello ones only make it worse, it gets stuck more, back to old ones then. Shocks are the weirdest, removing them changes almost nothing, the suspension is extremely wobbly in both cases. Increasing the shock damp values even 1000 times doesn't help. Could be a geometry issue? If so, then what should the geometry be, the whole model is inaccurate to real life, someone would have to remodel it based on blueprints if this is the case.
    "Just do it the same as in vanilla cars"? Tried the exact same values as in the Autobello, still nothing. Tried the exact identical setup as on the Autobello with zero changes except moving the suspension to the proper place, the wheels explode, it's not a problem with my wheels because all vanilla ones explode too. It's not a clipping issue, tried disabling collision. It's not a weight issue, I have made the rear suspension heavier based on the Autobello one at the cost of reducing the rear fenders weight back to the old value, they still explode. Not an offset issue either, tried various offsets, including the exact same as on the Autobello which made the track much wider, they still explode. I have absolutely no idea what is going on here and I'm afraid to even touch the front suspension because it will definitely break the whole thing. I fear that both suspensions have to be redone completely from scratch, not based on official vehicles because that doesn't want to work and I have no idea why.
     
  16. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    I just found out that the 90s FL version (the one produced by Fiat) was officially known as FL Maquillage, which is French for Makeup. What the heck.
    Also it didn't have a black interior color option. Speaking of which, I found some nerd who knows all the interior colors of this car, including all versions, including export and import of all countries, etc. So I added the interior color options from Polish versions to the mod (seats have a separate color slot):
    • Black (generic one available in ST and FL, was in the mod by default)
      1.png
    • Black and beige-ish (ST)
      2.png
    • Black and orannge-ish (ST)
      3.png
    • Black and green (ST)
      4.png
    • Beige-ish (650L/650K by TAN)
      5.png
    • Orange-ish (650L/650K)
      6.png
    • Green (650L/650K)
      7.png
    • Orange with beige seats (650K)
      8.png
    • Black with beige seats (650K)
      9.png
    • Grey with light grey seats and black dash (FL, EL, ELX)
      10.png
    • Beige with black dash (FL)
      11.png
    • Blue (FL Maquillage & EL, replaced black option)
      12.png
    • Grey with dark grey seats (EL)
      13.png
    • Bluish grey (ELX)
      14.png
    Also added headrests as option for seats instead of having separate seats with headrests:
    adsaeads.png
    And last thing, I found a manual for the car from Panek Car Sharing website, and added it as an option to add on the back seats. It's a really complex process to start the car according to the manual lol.
    dsadasd.png

    I still need someone to help with the suspension, I hoped to get it done today but I can't so I did all of this instead.
     
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  17. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    I did a bit of crash testing. Turns out I didn't have to change much to get pretty much the same result as in the images and video.
    wadasas.png
    On a 40 km/h head on crash into the wall, the front wheel arches get slightly shorter than the wheel diameter. The rest of the structure suffers a tiny bit of deformation, but not enough to break any of the glass. The hood bent the same way. Even the dummy hit the glass with its head because the seatbelts suck lol.
    There was honestly not much to change to achieve this result. I only had to make the B pillar a bit stronger and C pillar a lot stronger (understandable since the latter is way thicker than on the Piccolina and the car is newer so both could be stronger), make the sides of the hood deform easier so it doesn't get stuck in the body, and nerf the seatbelts a lot. Thankfully I didn't have to change anything that affects the suspension.
    If the runup on Gridmap is the standard length runup for crash testing, then the car really can't reach 50 km/h in this distance, only 49. This explains why the crash tests were done at 40. The first one looked a bit more devastating so I assume it was done at 50 km/h. My result at 49 is closer to that, the windshield falls off and the fenders bend more, the only thing that behaves different in it is the suspension... The leaf spring got all bent and messed up which lifted the front up... I won't attempt to fix that myself, I need a new suspension.
    sdadasasd.png
     
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  18. Xupaun

    Xupaun
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    First of all, I have no idea even why the autobello have adjustable camber and toe on the rear suspension. It should be fixed just like on solid axles. Can I take a look on the failed rear suspension JBEAM?
     
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  19. Agent_Y

    Agent_Y
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    For anyone who is curious, here are the results of the other crash tests on Gridmap at 40 km/h:
    sdsdaasd.png
    Compared to the old version of the mod (don't mind some messed up textures, the 2 versions aren't really compatible):
    sdassd.png
    It really didn't do that bad, on low speed crashes it performs ok. The problem is at high speed ones, and in my version it's mostly fixed.
    fefssdf.png
    On VERY high speed crashes, you can really see a difference lol. 200+ km/h, old doors didn't deform at all, the rest turned into a spiky mess.
    wddw.png
    --- Post updated ---
    Here, but idk how much you can figure out from this without the rest of the car.
     

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  20. EozCompanyCZ

    EozCompanyCZ
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    I’m actually surprised how well it seems to perform, now the suspension needs to be done but that the point with which I can’t help.

    Also, the blue interior looks really nice.
     
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