Where are we going?

Ytrewq · Nov 18, 2018

BeamNG - not giving a damn about screwed up AI since 0.12

fivedollarlamp · Nov 18, 2018

Why are people acting like this is a AAA game with AAA developers? let's face it, you're not going to get smooth development from a small team of people scattered across the globe. This is fact. If you don't like the way development is going, you don't have to rant about it... These people are working as hard as they can- and you shouldn't be throwing a fit and writing walls of text because you don't like how the game is being developed.

Danny Werewolf · Nov 18, 2018

One issue; people are comparing this game to other vehicle games because it has automobiles. Like @ManfredE3 said, the way the game is working, it makes more sense to compare it to Minecraft development wise.

Anyway, so glad Nadeox could finally give light on a lot of this. Wonder if this will be a new thread for developer updates/AMA-like ideas. It has the perfect name.

Again......HOW HAS THIS THREAD NOT DEVOLVED INTO A FLAMEWAR, THIS ISN'T THE FORUM I KNOW!

fufsgfen · Nov 18, 2018

Ytrewq said: ↑

BeamNG - not giving a damn about screwed up AI since 0.12
Click to expand...

What kind of response from developers would make you think that they do care?

vmlinuz · Nov 18, 2018

Nadeox1 said: ↑

Thanks again everybody for trying to keep the discussion as constructive as possible.
This helps us to know where we are lacking, so that we can improve ourselves to do better.

We are lacking communications with you guys, that seems clear and unwanted from both sides.
Despite our effort into doing micro-blogs and so on, that's probably not much representative of what we are doing on a larger scope.
These may have not been able to show the actual work, visible and less visible one we are doing over here.
We definitely have to fix this lacking point of ours.
As you should know, we are not that kind of people that sit in silence. If a question is made, or an issue is brought up, we do our best to reply and assist

Now to the hot topics that have been brought up, but first let me point out something different, which I also mentioned in another threads.
We have this bad habit of posting informative things regarding the game in threads that are often buried and hence missed by other people (as mentioned right above me).
Some of the things brought here have been replied/answered/mentioned multiple times around the forum.

To the hot topics:

Have the team lost their passion / is abandoning the project?

Heck no! We are working with as much passion in doing things as we were from the first day.
Things are not always as smooth as you'd expect, but we are not giving up!

The team stopped making content because modders are there for that?

Heck no, again! We are continuing to work on our own content.
The content we have promised will be there, unless we specifically say otherwise (and expect good reasons if that's the case).

There's less happening in the development?

No, the opposite probably. But we are lacking on the part of showing you all what is going on in the background. As said a few lines above, we will do our best to fix this.

The graphics looks old and game engine runs poorly, your plans are unclear for it

I invite to read this post first, which answers part of this: https://www.beamng.com/threads/possibly-a-new-engine.59255/#post-960618
Now that you have read that post, you should have a slightly clearer idea of why we are sticking to this and what we are going to do.
There is space for improvements. We have already been doing a lot of optimization work, and there's even more coming.
Taking apart the engine may seem counter-productive, but it's a necessary evil in order to be able to have better tools to work with.
An example is the World Editor, long time weak point. We are moving the whole thing into a more modern and open system (the new Track Builder was a taste of it), that would allow us to fix things and create newer tools easier and more efficiently.
The UI is being re-worked thanks to the feedback we have received to it, and in order to have something more reliable and not frustrating to use.
Just to mention some..

As you see, many of these things changes based on the experience and feedback we receive from them. But to reach that point, you first need to know what are the points that are not working fine, in order to improve them..
None of these are light-heartedly decisions, and needs a lot of carefully planning before investing time and effort, neither are changes that are made in a day/month (the 'Rome wasn't built in a day' saying, don't take it literally tho)

Your changes are breaking mods at every update!

When we work on things, we always try to keep older content work. This takes big efforts and time off the development, but none-the-less we are doing this.
Sometimes it's simply not possible to not break some mods, in particular the ones that relies on custom scripts or that changes core aspects of the game.
One example is that we tried to fix some some issues in the Jbeam parser. The result is that it broke some mods because they had errors in their Jbeam actually.
So you see that while we try to make things tidier, such issues are often blocking us.
Breakage of mods, despite we avoid this at our best, is something that cannot always be avoided in a game under development (it also happens in games not in Early Access)

Forever Early Access?

Not in our book. Our goal is to have a version 1.0, and are working toward it (even if it doesn't seem obvious for some).
There are games that have shorter early access cycles, there are others that have longer ones.
No game is the as the others. We have different starting points, different issues to deal with, different complexities in play, different sized team.
We are not the same few people team of some years ago, but we are not either a big sized team if you consider how many people are working full-time, and how many people every department has.
Things take a bit longer for us, than on your usual Early Access game. Add the complexities of dealing with a one-of-its-kind simulation on top of that

Career Mode?!

Career mode is the BIG thing. We are not taking this lightly, and every decision is being made carefully.
Development on that side may appeared slow to you, but actually lot happened. We had prototypes, some which hasn't worked as well as we expected. Learned from the mistakes, went back to the whiteboard and planned things better. It's a vicious cycle in order to find the best mix. We are not ready to share more in regards of this yet (we will tho, when it's time), but we are looking forward to maintain the promises we have made. Just to say that this is far from being overlooked.

As I mentioned in my previous post, in case you missed it's here,
We have also been working on improving our internal organization since some time.
Recently we welcomed a new figure in our team, a producer, which will help us toward our goals in more efficient ways.
We have already started to change our working habits along that change, and it will be more evident from the next updates

Now to get rid of some of this un-clarity about the next update, Italy and Autobello.
Next year? No, we are aiming for December. There's been incredible work being done to the optimization in particular (which is why we decided to postpone this)
Not wise to release numbers as of now, as we need to test on multiple machines yet, but we are gaining quite some performance from this focused work.
Our plan is to have something that runs better on release than West Coast did when it was released, and we are getting there.
As you can expect, the Autobello is going in tandem in Italy. This extra time is allowing us to add more stuff to it, as well do some more work on other vehicles and existing content

I hope you managed to read this post in its full entirely while reaching this point.
I'm optimistic this shed some clarity over where we are going and what we are doing.
As already mentioned multiple times, we will try to be more transparent with the development in the future, it's something we also look forward too (rather than need these threads to show more about the development)
Click to expand...

Excellent. But I must know: is there a fix in the works for this lighting LOD fuckery? It's triggering my OCD.

Glitchy · Nov 18, 2018

Nadeox1 said: ↑

Thanks again everybody for trying to keep the discussion as constructive as possible.
This helps us to know where we are lacking, so that we can improve ourselves to do better.

We are lacking communications with you guys, that seems clear and unwanted from both sides.
Despite our effort into doing micro-blogs and so on, that's probably not much representative of what we are doing on a larger scope.
These may have not been able to show the actual work, visible and less visible one we are doing over here.
We definitely have to fix this lacking point of ours.
As you should know, we are not that kind of people that sit in silence. If a question is made, or an issue is brought up, we do our best to reply and assist

Now to the hot topics that have been brought up, but first let me point out something different, which I also mentioned in another threads.
We have this bad habit of posting informative things regarding the game in threads that are often buried and hence missed by other people (as mentioned right above me).
Some of the things brought here have been replied/answered/mentioned multiple times around the forum.

To the hot topics:

Have the team lost their passion / is abandoning the project?

Heck no! We are working with as much passion in doing things as we were from the first day.
Things are not always as smooth as you'd expect, but we are not giving up!

The team stopped making content because modders are there for that?

Heck no, again! We are continuing to work on our own content.
The content we have promised will be there, unless we specifically say otherwise (and expect good reasons if that's the case).

There's less happening in the development?

No, the opposite probably. But we are lacking on the part of showing you all what is going on in the background. As said a few lines above, we will do our best to fix this.

The graphics looks old and game engine runs poorly, your plans are unclear for it

I invite to read this post first, which answers part of this: https://www.beamng.com/threads/possibly-a-new-engine.59255/#post-960618
Now that you have read that post, you should have a slightly clearer idea of why we are sticking to this and what we are going to do.
There is space for improvements. We have already been doing a lot of optimization work, and there's even more coming.
Taking apart the engine may seem counter-productive, but it's a necessary evil in order to be able to have better tools to work with.
An example is the World Editor, long time weak point. We are moving the whole thing into a more modern and open system (the new Track Builder was a taste of it), that would allow us to fix things and create newer tools easier and more efficiently.
The UI is being re-worked thanks to the feedback we have received to it, and in order to have something more reliable and not frustrating to use.
Just to mention some..

As you see, many of these things changes based on the experience and feedback we receive from them. But to reach that point, you first need to know what are the points that are not working fine, in order to improve them..
None of these are light-heartedly decisions, and needs a lot of carefully planning before investing time and effort, neither are changes that are made in a day/month (the 'Rome wasn't built in a day' saying, don't take it literally tho)

Your changes are breaking mods at every update!

When we work on things, we always try to keep older content work. This takes big efforts and time off the development, but none-the-less we are doing this.
Sometimes it's simply not possible to not break some mods, in particular the ones that relies on custom scripts or that changes core aspects of the game.
One example is that we tried to fix some some issues in the Jbeam parser. The result is that it broke some mods because they had errors in their Jbeam actually.
So you see that while we try to make things tidier, such issues are often blocking us.
Breakage of mods, despite we avoid this at our best, is something that cannot always be avoided in a game under development (it also happens in games not in Early Access)

Forever Early Access?

Not in our book. Our goal is to have a version 1.0, and are working toward it (even if it doesn't seem obvious for some).
There are games that have shorter early access cycles, there are others that have longer ones.
No game is the as the others. We have different starting points, different issues to deal with, different complexities in play, different sized team.
We are not the same few people team of some years ago, but we are not either a big sized team if you consider how many people are working full-time, and how many people every department has.
Things take a bit longer for us, than on your usual Early Access game. Add the complexities of dealing with a one-of-its-kind simulation on top of that

Career Mode?!

Career mode is the BIG thing. We are not taking this lightly, and every decision is being made carefully.
Development on that side may appeared slow to you, but actually lot happened. We had prototypes, some which hasn't worked as well as we expected. Learned from the mistakes, went back to the whiteboard and planned things better. It's a vicious cycle in order to find the best mix. We are not ready to share more in regards of this yet (we will tho, when it's time), but we are looking forward to maintain the promises we have made. Just to say that this is far from being overlooked.

As I mentioned in my previous post, in case you missed it's here,
We have also been working on improving our internal organization since some time.
Recently we welcomed a new figure in our team, a producer, which will help us toward our goals in more efficient ways.
We have already started to change our working habits along that change, and it will be more evident from the next updates

Now to get rid of some of this un-clarity about the next update, Italy and Autobello.
Next year? No, we are aiming for December. There's been incredible work being done to the optimization in particular (which is why we decided to postpone this)
Not wise to release numbers as of now, as we need to test on multiple machines yet, but we are gaining quite some performance from this focused work.
Our plan is to have something that runs better on release than West Coast did when it was released, and we are getting there.
As you can expect, the Autobello is going in tandem in Italy. This extra time is allowing us to add more stuff to it, as well do some more work on other vehicles and existing content

I hope you managed to read this post in its full entirely while reaching this point.
I'm optimistic this shed some clarity over where we are going and what we are doing.
As already mentioned multiple times, we will try to be more transparent with the development in the future, it's something we also look forward too (rather than need these threads to show more about the development)
Click to expand...

Now this is what I wanted to see, thanks for finally responding! I have very high hopes for this game, and I'm a bit more motivated to play this game now! Thank you!

Capkirk · Nov 18, 2018

Ytrewq said: ↑

BeamNG - not giving a damn about screwed up AI since 0.12
Click to expand...

I've never seen those issues before. AI has always been a neat and clean driver for me, if not a little derpy. Could it be related to the fact you're playing a slideshow, or is that just the recording software?

fufsgfen · Nov 18, 2018

Capkirk said: ↑

I've never seen those issues before. AI has always been a neat and clean driver for me, if not a little derpy. Could it be related to the fact you're playing a slideshow, or is that just the recording software?
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity I did set out to test, it seems AI is pretty equal to my driving level

But there is an issue if AI car is ahead and you are close to it, then choose chase, AI gets confused instead of turning around, at the end AI indeed acts like being self destructive, you have to have car close to AI car and AI car must be ahead of your car:

Ytrewq · Nov 18, 2018

fufsgfen said: ↑

What kind of response from developers would make you think that they do care?
Click to expand...

Fixing this bug, even if it means reverting the AI back to 0.11 state. I didn't notice any changes anyway - except destroyed chase mode that is impossible to use in demo derbies. Or at least saying that they are working on it, or even confessing that they are unable to fix it right now. While all response I got are ratings and one nonsense reply ("something like this is simply not implemented - Diamondback).

zestyfolfdude said: ↑

Why are people acting like this is a AAA game with AAA developers? let's face it, you're not going to get smooth development from a small team of people scattered across the globe. This is fact. If you don't like the way development is going, you don't have to rant about it... These people are working as hard as they can- and you shouldn't be throwing a fit and writing walls of text because you don't like how the game is being developed.
Click to expand...

If it's in any way related to my post about AI...I want to tell you something. I would be perfectly fine without smooth development - but what happened with the AI is not even development. It's straightforward degradation, and I find it hard to tolerate.

Capkirk said: ↑

I've never seen those issues before. AI has always been a neat and clean driver for me, if not a little derpy. Could it be related to the fact you're playing a slideshow, or is that just the recording software?
Click to expand...

No, it's always like that. Just tested.

fufsgfen said: ↑

Out of curiosity I did set out to test, it seems AI is pretty equal to my driving level

But there is an issue if AI car is ahead and you are close to it, then choose chase, AI gets confused instead of turning around, at the end AI indeed acts like being self destructive, you have to have car close to AI car and AI car must be ahead of your car:

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the problem, AI refuses to hit you with its rear end.

Danny Werewolf · Nov 18, 2018

fufsgfen said: ↑

But there is an issue if AI car is ahead and you are close to it, then choose chase, AI gets confused instead of turning around, at the end AI indeed acts like being self destructive, you have to have car close to AI car and AI car must be ahead of your car:
Click to expand...

Check "Trajectory" in the debug takedown in the AI App. I often find the pathing and the way it's pathed to be really confusing. I think the ai also has issues driving lengthy cars (Like the Dansworth school bus)

Then again, I don't know anything.

roland91 · Nov 18, 2018

Just reading what everyone's thinking, and can't really agree.

Main complaints seem to be lack of content, the missing career, infrequent updates and the AI.

Lack of content updates seem obvious: the more you produce early on the more you'll have to redo later. Therefore content as in vehicles and props would need to come as late as possible? Specially with a small(ish) team, to be able to work on the underlaying basic game first.

The same goes for the career, although getting a barely playable career would be nice for some, others could get annoyed and even angered if the barely playable early career gets fully ditched later. It is good to know that the devs have had some career concepts roghly in the game by now though

The long time between updates is a good thing for a small dev team in my mind at least. I mean, getting an update every other month seems insane:

An update is rushed out due to the 2 month deadline, then a lot of bugs get reported and for the next month the whole team is trying to rescue the last update with extensive patching. And then devs notice the calendar and see that it is almost time to push the next update out but the last update just got patched so no real development has been going on. So then it's time to do even more extra hour work to have something to present in the coming update, which makes that one rushed and therefore even buggier than the last one...

The AI is something I personally have been worrying about ever since I started to mess with it. BeamNG devs seem to want to have non-cheating AI, but I am seriously concerned that it may be too much for the devs... There have been some promising posts, but it all seems overwhelming to be honest. I mean, if it gets done, I will be amazed Just don't overwork - and unfortunately it seems to be an issue with the BeamNG GmBH, if rumors are true. I have spent a year of working 14hours a day, 7 days a week, including a bunch of holidays and all that for not much pay. And I hate myself a bit for doing that - regeret is real. So hopefully everything is going good for the devs wellbeing.

But overall I am very happy with .Drive. It is my favourite game easily, even in current state. I have played Beam a lot more than Wreckfest, and will continue that way since for some reason I am not fully satisfied with the damage in Wreckfest, I don't know why....

Also the performance issues: I really don't have any, and I use a bloody cheapish laptop... Specifically the West coast USA map, for me it is actually one of the better ones, feels very optimized for me. Unfortunately the East coast USA seems to suffer a bit for me, unfortunate since it is my favorite of all the maps. And since I have Beam installed on SSD and have the habit of pausing the physics to use menus, Beam is the quickest game to play Important when you have only 30-40 minutes of free time to play something, can't really spend much time staring a loading screen(like in Forza or Farming simulator, or even Automation- I must have my Automation install broken or something, it loads for a very long time).

And since Giants got mentioned: Their Farming Simulator series(which I am a fan of) feels like a bit of a cashgrab to me Just some simple looking updates every two years and have to pay some more cash to get the latest version of what feels like the same game as always Thankfully they haven't really overpriced it yet In Beam atleast the devs dont just cut off development and say: Here's the .Drive1.0, We'll report back after two years and if you want some new features, a new map and a few vehicles, you'll have to pay another 35 USD/Eur.

I have a lot of faith in Beam devs, everything they have done and wrote about so far seems to match with my personal vision of an ideal driving game. Keep up the amaizing work

Diamondback · Nov 19, 2018

Btw, those complaining about the AI: You might not be aware of how complicated this topic actually is. It's literally in the same ballpark as creating logic for a selfdriving car IRL. So the stuff companies like BMW, Audi, etc have entire divisions of people for (and still fail pretty badly atm )

You might wonder why other games have much better AIs? That's because their technical requirements are much smaller, they usually don't actually drive the AI car like a real person would (ie using throttle, brake, steering).
Our AI however, does exactly that, it literally tries to simulate a human being driving the car. (Please let me know if you have data on any other game doing this, I don't think there is any tbh)
So when you are saying that the AI sucks you might as well blame us for not being able to create something better than real car companies

fufsgfen · Nov 19, 2018

roland91 said: ↑

And since Giants got mentioned: Their Farming Simulator series(which I am a fan of) feels like a bit of a cashgrab to me Just some simple looking updates every two years and have to pay some more cash to get the latest version of what feels like the same game as always Thankfully they haven't really overpriced it yet In Beam atleast the devs dont just cut off development and say: Here's the .Drive1.0, We'll report back after two years and if you want some new features, a new map and a few vehicles, you'll have to pay another 35 USD/Eur.
Click to expand...

I think you are incorrect, FS is HUGE cashgrab, also that trucking sim company does the same, only prettiness changes, some minor new features and that is a new game, well they did move to DLC skins maps etc and if you want to play cool mod, buy ALL DLC maps.

BeamNG devs are really generous, sometimes I worry that they are giving too much for too cheap, they put huge amount of work in and you get that under 30 euros, ton of new content with updates too.

Something like Raceroom, each vehicle costs money, several euros, rFactor2 has such too, but also I think some map was 20 euros or more, that is one race track where you drive only at pits and on race track itself. iRacing did cost monthly and then you still needed to pay for cars and tracks I think. 100 euros for sim content and software is easily spent. It has gone quite expensive hobby.

ETS2 is something like 60 euros or more to be able to play all mods and their new DLC map is soon come which will increase the cost?

Of course with BeamNG computer hardware needs to be really beefy, quite close to top of the line from 4th gen intel or newer.

Anyway I don't really have complains about how BeamNG is, I just think it is really a bargain in today's world.

I think many would be interested about article of how exactly AI in BeamNG operates.

Aboroath · Nov 19, 2018

zestyfolfdude said: ↑

Why are people acting like this is a AAA game with AAA developers? let's face it, you're not going to get smooth development from a small team of people scattered across the globe. This is fact. If you don't like the way development is going, you don't have to rant about it... These people are working as hard as they can- and you shouldn't be throwing a fit and writing walls of text because you don't like how the game is being developed.
Click to expand...

Uhm, no thanks. I'll keep my detailed and passionate "rants" coming. You can choose to read and understand them or not.

Cheers

Kueso · Nov 19, 2018

Good grief
I stop monitoring this thread for like 2 days and all of this happened
Im honestly just glad this game exists.
It give me something to do when i have nothing better to do.
Some of you people are just complaining to complain. especially about the AI
the AI is an idiot sometimes, sure, but there are work-arounds. Like using dev maps. They tend to have the best AI mapping, and even then, its not perfect.
This game was made by humans. living, breathing people who dont have all day to devote to this, probably have a family, and things to do.
BeamNG definitely has a good future, with the devotion the devs have shown, and causing all this doesnt really help them out much.

And then there are certain people (You know who you are) who actually are trying to reason with people, and bring good points to the table that just get pushed aside by the rest of the non-contributing/ off topic rants.

This game is great for what it is, and im glad it hasnt died yet, and i dont think it will soon.
Keep in mind: ROR and Beam are pioneers in this genre. Name me one other game that does deformation as well if not better than these 2.

Thanks for reading, and please correct me if I am wrong in any of my statements.

Snikle · Nov 19, 2018

BlueGinge123 said: ↑

Keep in mind: ROR and Beam are pioneers in this genre. Name me one other game that does deformation as well if not better than these 2.
Click to expand...

Wreckfest is really the only thing that comes close. It's deformation is good, but still not as good as Beam's though.

Kueso · Nov 19, 2018

Snikle said: ↑

Wreckfest is really the only thing that comes close. It's deformation is good, but still not as good as Beam's though.
Click to expand...

yeah, but Wreckfest's physics are completely inferior to beams, and even ROR.

fufsgfen · Nov 19, 2018

Interestingly enough, some time ago I stumbled upon this, so there is a competition emerging, however what I see does not look like to be quite near the level of as good or better:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/488550/Dream_Car_Builder/

That game does have few really nice ideas, but it is not really able to compete, at least not yet, but something to keep on eye like any potential competition.

Kueso · Nov 19, 2018

fufsgfen said: ↑

Interestingly enough, some time ago I stumbled upon this, so there is a competition emerging, however what I see does not look like to be quite near the level of as good or better:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/488550/Dream_Car_Builder/

That game does have few really nice ideas, but it is not really able to compete, at least not yet, but something to keep on eye like any potential competition.
Click to expand...

hmm
Its very interesting, but their graphics are meh and simulation is good, but not near Beams just yet.

fufsgfen · Nov 19, 2018

BlueGinge123 said: ↑

hmm
Its very interesting, but their graphics are meh and simulation is good, but not near Beams just yet.
Click to expand...

Especially driving physics, tires etc. are not even near, but it seems BeamNG is no longer alone with soft body physics, there are other attempts now too which is interesting then to see will there be more and what that will mean in a future. Keen eye of course spies all that so nothing can surprise suddenly

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