Gavril Barstow

Especially surprising given that Radial T/As in this game are, based on my testing, only barely better than standard tires. This makes sense given that these days, real-life equivalents like BFGoodrich Radial T/A and Cooper Cobra Radial G/T are fairly low-end, but also inexplicably low-treadwear (360/400 and 440 respectively), S- and T-rated all-season junk euphemistically referred to as "Performance All-Season", the but it doesn't really help explaining how the Lancehead can keep up with things on sport tires. I guess raw power makes up for a lot, but I have a hard time believing it makes up for that much; it's only 37 horsepower up on the Pessima GTz.

 

Raw power certainly helps, but it could also be that the venue I used (Hirochi Raceway Medium) favors the Lancehead more than the '88 Pessima GTZ.

Here's the laptimes I recorded about a month ago for these cars on keyboard on that layout (2 laps, forward, no rolling start):


Barstow 423 Roadsport (M): 3:17.2 total, 1:38.6 average

Barstow Lancehead (M): 3:03.2 total, 1:31.6 average

854tx (A): 3:01.3 total, 1:30.6 average

'88 Pessima GTZ: 3:04.9 total, 1:32.5 average

'96 Pessima GTZ: 3:01.1 total, 1:30.5 average


And that 854tx was the fastest of the 854s, as well. Most of them tended to run in the 1:32s or even the 1:33s. Yes, a lot of these cars are quite a bit down on power to the Lancehead, but they also have IRS, AWD, and/or much more usable power around a fairly medium-speed circuit that mostly prioritizes handling.

I know that bias-plies tend to make cars really slow in this game, but yeezus, 7 seconds a lap of difference? Between two cars which are very similar? The coils might be helping the Lancehead out a bit there.

I've included all the laptimes I've done around Hirochi Medium in the spreadsheet linked below; you can have a look if you want. Granted, I didn't lap every single config, but with 749 official configurations, I had to pare down somewhere. So, for instance, the 1973 I6/V8 Moonhawks didn't get lapped because they're practically identical to the 1976 Moonhawk I6/V8s. So, I'd just use the '76s' laptimes for the '73s. However, both years of Moonhawk V8 Sports got lapped because the '76s have wider, staggered wheels and tires (8 inch front, 9 inch rear) compared to the '73s (7 inch all around).

And I lapped all the manual and auto configs, too, so that I could get a clearer picture of how the different transmission types affected the performance of each vehicle. (It was only like, 40 configs that I didn't end up running.)

EDIT: Also included all the measurements for the Beam vehicles (and the cannon), including the lengths of the D/H/Roamer variants (that was a bit of a pain to do).

 

Wow, you did the research.

I'm genuinely surprised the 854tx was the fastest 854t and the second fastest car in your list there; I just ran the 854t, the Barstow Lancehead, and both Pessimas through the Utah canyon road and to me the biggest problems with the 854t seemed to be:

1. 180 horsepower into 3400+ pounds doesn't go; this thing really hurts for power.
2. Subjectively, it feels like the grip just isn't there, as if the combination of a weak engine and a decent chassis dulls the sense of speed.

Somehow, I wouldn't expect an extra 100 pounds in the form of AWD to solve either problem, but AWD is magic so eh

What surprises me more is that the '96 Pessima was the fastest car, while the '88 was slower than everything but the bias ply Barstow. In my canyon runs the '88 felt powerful, agile, and light on its feet (and it was the fastest off the "back straight crest", while the '96 just felt terrible - enough power to waste the front tires on corner exit despite the limited slip differential, but not enough to actually get going, and lots of understeer that turns into wild oversteer if you upset the balance by trying to change directions while braking. However I'm running a G27 so my impressions might be completely different, and I might end up ranking the cars much differently if I were to go for timed laps.

A while back I ran a bunch of different cars on the Otarumi Touge mod, not timing anything, just gathering impressions. I did replace any bias-ply or racing tires with appropriate street radials. After those runs I actually thought the Barstow had rather poor dynamics regardless of engine, tires, or rear suspension; it seemed to plow through corners at a glacial pace and never quite turn tight enough, then immediately oversteer into the outside wall as soon as you even looked at the throttle. But perhaps that initial impression was being too hard on it.

Testing at Grid Small Pure, I was able to get a maximum consistent grip of 0.91g for an ETK 854t (M).

The Barstow Lancehead genuinely shocked me by getting a consistent maximum of 0.87-0.88g; as you reach toward 0.89 it starts to yaw on its own and will usually show a peak of 0.91 before it spins out completely. I'm genuinely interested to know how it's getting numbers like that on trash tires with what is still a live-axle rear suspension. The '88 Pessima struggled to pull 0.86g, just how, it's on sport tires, what is even going on here. The '96 got a consistent 0.94g with flickers of 0.95, how again, it's on sport tires just like the '88 and only 20mm. 856tx got a 0.93 and seems to do best with the tires barely singing, again with 20mm of extra tire. '88 Pessima on the '96 Pessima's wheel & tire package pulls a high 0.91, almost 0.92, so 20mm + lower profile really makes more than 0.05g of difference?

 

Yeah, that's likely the biggest issue with the 854. The non-ttSport 856s, though, aren't much faster. The fastest of those was the 856td (A), which did an average of 1:28.7. The ttSport+ (A) was the fastest of the 800s, at a 1:23.5 average.

The K-Series is just a better racer than the 800 - its overall average of laptimes (1:26.9) is about 4 seconds faster than the 800's (1:30.5), although the 800's overall average still gets it into seventh, behind the Bastion (1:29.3) and Sunburst (1:28.4). The K-Series loses out to the Bolide (1:26.2), even though that thing was a PITA for me to drive around.

And yeah, I reckon a wheel and more experience will probably make the differences between the 800 and K even more apparent.

Especially on keyboard, AWD is so amazing. On gamepad, it's less so, since throttle control is so much easier, but it's still nice to have.

The thing that really kills the '88 GTZ, especially with a keyboard, is its turbocharger. Whereas you can gradually roll on the power with the '96 GTZ, the '88 GTZ can't really do that. I think the V6's weight also helps put more traction on the front wheels of the '96, and with the '96 weighing about 300 (EDIT: 100) pounds less than the '88, the power/weight isn't too different. I think the '96 GTZ also gets wider tires than the '88 GTZ - the base '96 starts off with 15x7s, whereas the base '88 has 14x5.5s.

Maybe my driving style also favors N/A cars over turbos.

 

True, I tend to have a pretty rough driving style for a wheel user, and stiff, powerful RWDs are my greatest enemy. So always stomping on the throttle, I probably won't even notice the '88's turbo lag once it's going, whereas I will notice the obnoxious one-wheel-peels from the '96.

I added some G data to the previous post, it's quite mystifying, if it's realistic then it is possible I made a mistake going down from 18"/40 series to 17"/45 series on my RL car, though I also went 10mm wider in the process so who knows.

 

I was curious about this, so I tried out various different tires on the 423 RoadSport, and this is what I got on the skidpad at 40 mph (consistently, using cruise control):

-E70-14 Bias-Ply: 0.77 g
-195/75R14 Grip-All: 0.82 g
-195/70R14 Standard: 0.79 g
-195/65R14 Sport: 0.83 g
-185/60R14 Standard: 0.8 g
-185/60R14 Sport: 0.83 g
-185/60R14 Race: 0.97 g

And then I stuck a stock-sprung coil axle (like the Lancehead) on the back and did the test again.

-E70-14 Bias-Ply: 0.82 g (+0.05)
-195/75R14 Grip-All: 0.89 g (+0.07)
-195/70R14 Standard: 0.82 g (+0.03)
-195/65R14 Sport: 0.88 g (+0.05)
-185/60R14 Standard: 0.81 g (+0.01)
-185/60R14 Sport: 0.87 g (+0.04)
-185/60R14 Race: 1.07 g (+0.10)

I also tried the '88 GTZ (195/60R15s all around) and I got 0.89 g with the same testing. I don't know how you got only 0.86 - maybe you were being a bit aggressive with the throttle?

So, yeah, it's not just the tires that help the Lancehead - it's also the coils, like I suspected. But yeezus, +0.07 g on the Grip-All T/As with a different suspension? Wow, that's huge. That pretty much means that any remotely competitive street-legal performance Barstow is gonna have to run coils. It's a rather expensive upgrade, but for how much performance it gives? It's worth it 10 times outta 10.

And it confirms my suspicions as to why the Burnside is so slow compared to the other live-axle cars and light trucks - it's kneecapped by its leaf springs. The Moonhawk, Hopper, Grand Marshal, and Bluebuck all come with coils all round, even on the base versions, and the Barstow, Miramar,* Pigeon, and D/H/Roamer at least get the option for coils. Only the Burnside, T-Series, Miramar, and Wentward are stuck with leaves.

This is also partially why the factory Wigeons run rings around their Pigeon counterparts - yes, the Wigeon's 200 pounds lighter, 16 cm wider, 15 cm lower, and has slightly wider rear tires, but it also comes with coils on the back from standard, while the factory Pigeons come with leaves.

Here's my average laptimes at Hirochi Medium (same 2 laps-forward-standing start as always) between the three- and four-wheeled Pigeons and Wigeons.

Pigeon Base: 2:21.2
Pigeon Plus: 2:07.0
Wigeon Base: 2:03.7
Wigeon Sprint: 1:56.8

Man, I wasn't expecting to learn all this so fast - thank you very much for opening my eyes to how much of a difference coils can make over leaves.

*EDIT: I thought the Miramar had coils on its race live axles, since it handles quite well, but nope! Leaves for all three rear suspension options.

 

I use the cruise control app to maintain a constant 60 MPH, then smoothly increase steering angle until the g-meter app shows that I have reached, then passed, a peak. It's possible that the '88 Pessima, under those conditions, never got to fully use its rear tires before the front started to plow.

Hm. This (and the Barstow showing peak grip under oversteer conditions) may have exposed a flaw in my testing methodology, but I'm not sure how to work around this while maintaining repeatability. Thank you for helping me see this.

Your welcome, no problem.

 

Yeah, that makes a lotta sense. The more of the car's g-force is needed for acceleration, the less there will be for turning, and vice versa. I had that issue multiple times with my 40-mph tests before I started using cruise control.

No problem.

This whole thing has made me realize what could potentially be the meta "cheap speed" Barstow for career mode:

You could probably take an Awful or stock-six Barstow, put the TrackSport's hotted-up 291 and sport 5-speed in the front, slap on the Lancehead's suspension, slap on your Alder wheel of choice, and end up with a decently fast Barstow for like, $30-35,000. It'd be good enough everywhere, while being able to be easily upgraded for track duty or rallying.

And that's fantastic news to me, because - to bring this while discussion back to the Barstow directly for a bit - I thought for quite a while that it wasn't going to be competitive for career mode unless it got upgraded like the TrackSport. I liked driving the Lancehead and sliding it around from time to time, but I didn't think it'd be very fast compared to, say, the 854s or the Pessima GTZs. If I wanted a classic that could compete with modern vehicles, I typically went with the Moonhawk, Miramar, or Piccobello.

But seeing that it can compete with those cars while being street-legal and nice to drive is absolutely amazing because right now, we're kinda lacking in pre-1975 cars in general and classic muscle/pony cars in particular. If the Barstow couldn't be a viable career mode vehicle outside of full-race-spec, that'd be a bit concerning to me. It still suffers from the subframe issues (like a weak driveshaft), but other than that, it's good enough to be on par with the Moonhawk - around a racetrack, at least.

(The Moonhawk and Barstow got very similar total average laptimes around Hirochi Medium - the Barstow with a 1:38.8, the Moonhawk with a 1:38.9.)

 

Now here I was of the opinion that the Moonhawk was right alongside the D-Series as one of the sloppiest handling non-Pigeons in the game. I liked the look of the car, but no matter what I did I couldn't get the thing to work right with any more than about 220 horsepower thrown at it.

 

the wigeon is even worse than the pigeon, in my opinion

 

Well neither of those cars are meant to handle well

 

The Wigeon's way better-handling than the Pigeon - even in base three-wheeled form, the Wigeon will outrun the factory four-wheeled Pigeons simply because it's really light and has coils at the back instead of leaves.

It's still the fourth-slowest vehicle in the game overall, but in its Mantis form, I managed to make it go almost as fast as the Barstow TrackSport around Hirochi Raceway Medium, even on a keyboard (1:27.2 average vs. 1:26.1 average).

The Moonhawk is more of a handling vehicle compared to the Barstow - granted, neither car handle as well as, say, an SBR4 or a K-Series, but the Moonhawk trims tend to get wider tires than the equivalent Barstow trims. (The base I6/V8 Moonhawks have 7-inch-wide rims, compared to the 6-inchers on the base I6/V8 Barstows.) The Moonhawk's stock coil rear axle also helps significantly with making it better to handle.

The Moonhawk I6 has substantially more power than any of the other classic I6s, too (149 vs. 122 for the Barstow and 117 for the Bluebuck), which means that it's quite quick - bringing the average time for the Moonhawk up. While the Moonhawk Special isn't nearly as fast as the Barstow Lancehead or Tracksport, it is faster than the Kingsnake, despite being down about 50 horsepower.

Here's the average times I got for similar trims of all of those vehicles around Hirochi Raceway Medium (2 laps, standing start, forward) on a keyboard:

Bluebuck 232 I6 2-Door Sedan (A): 1.48.8
Barstow 232 I6 (A): 1:47.1
Moonhawk I6 (A): 1:45.3

Bluebuck 291 V8 2-Door Sedan (A): 1:45.8
Barstow 291 V8 (A): 1:41.6
Moonhawk V8 (A): 1:42.3

Bluebuck 423 V8 Sport (M): 1:38.4
Barstow 423 V8 RoadSport (M): 1:38.6
Moonhawk V8 Sport (1973) (M): 1:39.3

Bluebuck 423 V8 RoadSport (M): 1:38.0
Barstow Kingsnake (M): 1:38.3
Moonhawk V8 Special (M): 1:36.2

Bluebuck Stock Car (M): 1:25.8
Barstow TrackSport (M): 1:23.9
Moonhawk Track (M): 1:20.8

Overall, the Barstows and Moonhawks were fairly similar, with the Moonhawk having the biggest advantage in the base, top-spec, and race variations. I could've used the Barstow's base 353 or 423 as a comparison to the base V8 Moonhawk, but those configs of the Barstow overheat so fast. Even two laps of hard driving makes their radiators boil, even with the manual and when I barely screeched their tires. The Moonhawk doesn't suffer from similar overheating issues nearly as much as the Barstow - it's not terrific, but it'll at least do a quick time trial without spraying oil everywhere.

It could be that the Barstow's front-heaviness makes it a lot more of a handful compared to the Moonhawk. (The thin bias-plies and rear leaf springs on the base models and RoadSports don't help matters.) Also, I don't know if the Barstow's front subframe affects handling compared to the full frame of the Moonhawk.

It could also be that the Barstow's aero or suspension is a bit whack - it's an old car that hasn't received much in the way of updates or new content over the years, while the Moonhawk's had its Jbeam substantially edited a few times. (In update 0.7, the Moonhawk was given the ability to have its body rip off its frame. It also received a body reproportioning in update 0.16.)

 

Is it just me, or the Kingsnake handles way worse than the Roadsport Package? It feels like the factory just smash some race brakes and race coilovers without tuning them. The front sway bar is way too stiff and the brake balance is way too front

 

The Lancehead is one of the top 5 driver's cars in the game. Just an absolute joy, flows from corner to corner smoother than flat Sprite, gets as much grip on Radial T/As as some cars do on Sport compound

The Kingsnake is just too stiff in every way and would probably literally be better with the Lancehead's suspension

No comparison

 

What I noticed is that the tire width seems to have a huge impact on the Barstow's handling. The Kingsnake has a staggered fitment of 15x8 in front and 15x9 at the back. I could literally just switch the back wheels to 15x8 (with the same 235 60 r15 tires, same as the front) and the car will turn a whole lot better, even if I run a 1cm wheel offset at the back. Putting 9-inch wide wheels will make the car more understeery.

 

Same for the Tracksport, it has the same setup too, with the 4-link Live Rear Axle!
--- Post updated ---

It needs some tuning, that's for sure. But I still think it's better balanced and less jumpy/hoppy at the rear than the Roadsport because it has the 4-link coil-sprung Live Rear Axle instead of the Roadsport's leaf-sprung Live Rear Axle. With the staggered 26x8x8 front/26x8.5x9 rear race tires, it becomes a very capable car.

 

This is interesting because I just tried to compare the two cars
These times were made with my mediocre driving on a racing steering wheel around the long route on Hirochi Raceway
In the Tracksport Barstow, I got a best lap of 1:36.619
In the Track Moonhawk, I got a best lap of 1:33.519
This is quite interesting, since the Moonhawk configuration I used was a track-prepped car, while the barstow was a factory option
Do what you want with this info

 

Could you provide a list of the top driver's cars? Thank you

 

Not really, I haven't driven enough of them back to back to back to back. I do like the VM301 Pessima GTz though. The ETK I-series in 3000i/x and 2400ti/x form is a very flattering drift car as well. The Wendover V8 Sport becomes surprisingly good when you install a manual transmission; the V8 Sport suspension parts seem to be way better than the normal sport ones. Bolide 350 is another good one.

Oh, and I almost forgot the Grand Marshal RS