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Taking steps: please remind me why AMD and this game don't mix well

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting: Bugs, Questions and Support' started by Shotgun Chuck, Dec 28, 2018.

  1. Shotgun Chuck

    Shotgun Chuck
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    I'm currently trying to price out how much a modern gaming rig would cost to build, but I've been out of the computer "scene" for so long that I no longer have any idea which processors, graphics cards, etc. are the current best (and by that I mean that the last time I bought a computer magazine, a 3.8GHz Pentium 4 was still considered pretty hot). One thing I do remember hearing is that this game runs very poorly on AMD processors, something to do with single-threaded performance as I recall. Can someone explain that to me in more detail?
     
  2. Capkirk

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    That was mostly older FX series processors, which had bad single core performance and compensated with lots of cores. Beam is single core limited in a lot of cases, so this causes issues. AMD Ryzen and Ryzen 2 processors have very similar single core performance to intel processors, especially when overclocked. Nowadays the better choice is usually whatever you can get a better deal on.
     
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  3. TheMohawkNinja

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    I was doing some research a bit ago on how well CPUs parallelize the game, and from what I found, it appears that while each car gets its' own software thread, the CPU will tend to put much of the game's load on a single hardware thread, meaning that single-threaded performance is going to be far more important than core count when determining what CPU to buy for BeamNG.Drive.

    As for whether or not current AMD processors have worse single-threaded performance versus Intel, you'd have to do your own research on that front, as I don't know what the current status is off the top of my head.

    For reference, my i7-4970k with an R9 390 can handle five script AI driven cars on WCUSA with myself in a sixth car at 30 FPS.
     
  4. Shotgun Chuck

    Shotgun Chuck
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    My absolute ideal would be to build the most powerful possible, however for a start I would be satisfied with the ability to run and record at 60FPS with one (driven by me) car and "reasonable" settings. That should be all that is immediately necessary for what I plan to do first (i.e. canyon time trials and driving impressions, recorded and uploaded because this game really needs more clean-driving content).
     
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  5. fufsgfen

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    Next spring new AMD should come up which is rumored to overtake intel, but not sure, those rumours are always bit much compared to reality, however 7nm technology should give even better single core performance than Ryzen.

    With release of 0.15 we are in interesting situation as single core performance is not quite so important anymore, surely it is still very important, but something like Ryzen 5 1600X especially with overclock should do fine, you get something like 15% weaker single core compared to intel, but equal or better multicore and roughly half the price.

    I have seen single car bananabench results between ~34 and ~46 from 2nd gen Ryzen (my stock i7-6700 non K gets around 40, 8086K stock gets around 44-46 and overclocked over 50 and you can't get much better than that), I think 2600X but not sure of that number, might of been 2700X, anyways it is bit confusing how some get so much weaker results than others, maybe those are sensitive to how settings are adjusted, idk.

    Intel is of course sure choice, but it does come with a cost.

    On GPUs I would not go for AMD, it is not only BeamNG that those have issues, also AMD is not quite as swift in turns as Nvidia, so fixing things might take time.

    Also I did read some developer stories and AMD seem to be bit lazy in working together with developers, so they might get performance issues and driver issues because of those reasons too, but also Nvidia is hugely bigger and has really extensive programs for developers so many jump into proprietary bandwagon.

    Lower power usage also means that you might save on PSU with Nvidia.

    For example my Skylake i7 with gtx1080 uses 47 Watts on idle and 300 Watts on fully loaded situation, as PSU efficiency is very much related to how much it is loaded, going for too big PSU is bad, so is going for too small, I have 450W Platinum rated PSU that can reliably deliver 500W, as PSU loses power with age that gives me pretty much best possible size match.

    PSU prices go up quite fast from 400-450W size, so that is one aspect you need to consider too, with AMD that is additional cost that needs to be factored in and never go for cheap PSU, that is a lottery.


    Now reason why single core performance is important, that is because graphics needs to be processed on CPU, then send to GPU, as GPU performance has increased far more rapidly than CPU single thread performance, many games struggle to feed fast modern GPU, most can run at 60fps, even BeamNG now with 0.15 update, but as CPUs have also moved to add more cores and threads to them, situation is such that single core performance is not allowing full use of all CPU threads or GPU, there is too much to be done in single thread to get full utilization of hardware.

    I would wait until 7nm AMD CPU is on market and some results are in, but if waiting is not an option, then AMD Ryzen if you are willing to overclock, check out banana bench thread of what people have got in practice, around 40Mbeams/s for single car, runs most of everything fine, but at Italy running high graphics with SSAO enabled you might want something like 45 or better to be able to keep 60fps with two cars.
    --- Post updated ---
    For video recording at Italy you would need close to 50Mbeams/s with single car in Banana bench, but on other maps my system records at 60fps just fine, except sometimes recording has stutters, but that is not CPU related or GPU related, as even very light to run games suffer from that, probably video recording settings of OBS are reason for that, however I don't know much of such.

    I can almost keep 60fps with 8 cars at JRI, so lot of maps are perfectly fine to record 60fps at max settings with single car with performance level that my system has and Ryzen can be better than mine with overclock:

    --- Post updated ---
    Oh yes, also for recording at 60fps on any map gtx1070 is needed or faster, 1060 6GB works fine, but might be bit short when recording videos at Italy.
     
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  6. Nadeox1

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    Yep, this. Ryzen reduced distances a lot from Intel.

    something something this lol


    On my second build I had one of these AMD Phenom Quad Core CPU, which was pretty terrible in single core perf. It was struggling even on the most basics games such as Rainbow Six Vegas 2 and Driver:SF, as soon you started to have a bit too much stuff on screen, for comparison.

    Considering a Ryzen nowadays is certainty not a bad idea, especially consider performance/price.
    Maybe I will go red myself at my next build :D
     
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  7. Straubz

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    Until a few months ago i was running a phenon II X6 1090t BE, it was still running any game i threw at it really well for its age.
     
  8. Nadeox1

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    There were different Phenoms made. I had the first gen IIRC (9600 BE was the model)
     
  9. Alex_Farmer557

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    Well, personal experience tells me that an AMD A6 has no issues with beam
     
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  10. fufsgfen

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    Considering that Ryzen 7 2700X and motherboard costs less or about same as i7-9700K CPU alone here, it is pretty darn good value.

    Only if one absolutely needs to run game at maximum possible framerate, then Intel is something one has to use, but Ryzen would be my choice for general gaming too.

    Ryzen 7 2700X has similar single core performance to i7-6700 non K and when overclocked it is similar to i7-6700K with mild overclock, however multicore performance is that of i7-8700K or close.

    i7-6700 non K vs i7-8086K, that used to be 20fps difference at maximum when overclocked in 0.14 game version, that is when heavily CPU limited to 40fps, so with 4.8Ghz overclock 8086K could do barely 60fps, what that has is twice the multicore performance compared to i7-6700 which is pretty hard to utilize fully.


    i9-9900K is best there is in single core performance at stock clocks I guess, not sure how thermal issues affect that, even with 8th gen thermal issues is limiting overclocking more than anything else.

    If money is not an object there is then i9-7980XE version of Intel, but TBH that is out of reach for most, Cinebench of 4000 or something ridiculous is possible with that, while being able to deliver single core performance that of overclocked i7-6700K, but CPU alone costs well over 2000 euros, if one has 5000 or so to put into computer build, then go ahead, there is only one of those here that I know of.

    Next AMD will be 7nm technology and at least in theory it should be lot cheaper way to get that kind of performance, remains to be seen how close that will reach of such in single core performance, but personally I would think CPUs that come 2019-2020 for upgrade as those probably are ones that will run BeamNG or any other such demanding game at 60fps with maximum graphics in any normal situation while recording videos.

    Upgrade right now and Ryzen 7 2700X or Ryzen 5 2600X would be very tempting, there was mentioning of more optimizations to come into BeamNG in one of the threads so those might be very much of a thing to get if you need it now.



    Highest graphics (Dyn reflections 80m and lowest update per face) i7-6700 runs Italy 50-55fps in slow spots when recording video, that is UI visible and using ETK K-series that is one of the heaviest cars on single core performance. Closing browsers etc. rebooting and killing not needed tasks, not recording video, hiding UI and it does manage 60fps solid.

    With i7-6700K or newer K variant of i7/i9, mildly overclocked Ryzen etc. whatever gives you more than 43Mbeams/s with single car in Banana bench it should be able to do 60fps, but turning off ssao and I'm not getting really much of any dips under 60fps, so that tells me that especially in future with more optimizations Ryzen should be really good choice.

    Recording video can reduce about 5fps when using nvsync, so 58 becomes 53 or so in this spot, also when moving fps drops few more, that is pretty much minimum one can get though and there are those mentioned future optimizations. Also some other cars are much lighter on single core performance, Covet for example is 6fps more in same situation.
    upload_2018-12-29_18-43-15.png upload_2018-12-29_18-57-28.png Vsync was off in game situation.
    That is what you get with 174CB / 40Mbeams/s (1 car) / 121 SC Mixed in https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/ as long as not GPU limited. Maybe useful when looking up different CPUs as FPS scales quite well with single core performance as long as GPU is not limiting, which it hardly ever is with gtx1080.

    Pretty close is the time when you can't go wrong performance wise for this game no matter which CPU you choose (within reason of course).

    I guess too many words, but there is quite bit of information available, so one can make choice and get exactly what excepted :)
     
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  11. Shotgun Chuck

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    Really dumb question time:

    i3-8100 LGA1151 300 series.

    Considering no one ever mentioned an i3, I have my doubts.

    What's actually going on here is that someone other than me is trying to buy/build a computer for things which are not gaming but are still somewhat intense, and so thinks that they might be able to help me in my quest for a better computer in the process. Of course, since BeamNG.Drive, Automation, and Assetto Corsa are pretty much the only modern PC games I'm interested in having right now, anything I say on that front is going to be Beam-centric.

    This person also has not much money and even less time to mess around researching parts, so "HOW TO BUILD A GAMING COMPUTER ON A $___ BUDGET" sites elsewhere start to look attractive. That's how we ended up finding an i3 with OK-looking specs... although that "up to 3.6GHz turbo" line in the description is scaring me. However an i7-7700 has also been found for a reasonable price.

    The maps I'm interested in recording on are, basically, any map with a decent canyon or rally road, which as far as I'm concerned includes old DRI.

    The articles in question are here:

    https://www.pcgamer.com/pc-build-guide-budget-gaming-pc/
    https://techguided.com/best-cheap-gaming-pcs/

    The maps I'm interested in recording on are, basically, any map with a decent canyon or rally road, which as far as I'm concerned includes old DRI. This is only with one car at a time and hiding UI is a very definite possibility as the series I'm planning might actually be helped by using cockpit view and relying on the gauges each car comes with, but on the other hand maybe not. Can things like the tachometer and brake temperature indicators be shown during a replay?
     
    #11 Shotgun Chuck, Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  12. SHOme1289

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    just chiming in here, click here for a PassMark benchmark list of pretty much every modern CPU's single core performance. My i5-6600K is decent, but theres an absolute shit load of CPUs that are above it on the list (better than). Check that out, theres even current pricing listed along each one.
     
  13. fufsgfen

    fufsgfen
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    7700K does pretty much anything what newer ones do, 7700 is like Ryzen 5 or 7 top of the line model, but without multicore capability which means it is less future proof as in future software will be more and more relaying to multicore performance instead of single core performance.

    However for now single core is still important in Beam, especially when recording video.

    Still with budget I would look for Ryzen 5 2600X

    For i3 maybe i3-8350K could be option too? https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-7700-vs-Intel-Core-i3-8350K/3887vs3935

    Used i5-6600K that was mentioned would do better than i3-8100, also Ryzen 5 1600X would do better than i3-8100 while cost probably is not much different.

    Ryzen 5 1600X would have 46% better multicore performance than i7-7700, but around 5% lower single core performance.

    i7-7700 and i5-6600K has same single core speed.

    So I would put them to this kind of order:
    Ryzen 5 1600X
    i3-8350K / i7-7700 / i5-6600K

    While Ryzen 5 1600X might be bit slower in BeamNG, it does so well in multicore performance that it will be good for many years and future optimizations of game might make it better choice.

    If three intel are similar in price, then I would put them to that order, but if 7700 is more expensive, than other two, then it will be last. Ryzen 5 1600X is not 1st choice if it is more expensive than i3-8350K or other intels, but it probably is similar in price or cheaper.

    7700 is probably more expensive than any of those other options, unless you find really good offer.

    If 6600K is lot cheaper than others, then it would be first choice.

    Any of those would do fine though and 1600X one can overclock pretty easily if needed.
     
  14. Shotgun Chuck

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    Alright, for for graphics would a Geforce RTX 2070 work? Again, knowing nothing about graphics card model nomenclature right now.
     
  15. DuneWulff

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    In turns of simply running the game... I can run the game comfortably at max settings with an ancient Geforce GTX 965, an RTX 2070 will be more than enough for everything except Monster Hunter World.
     
  16. Shotgun Chuck

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    UPDATE: unfortunately it also costs way too dang much for now. I can maybe find a better price on a 1070, but there are many different types, which would be needed to record 1 car at Italy with "reasonable" settings and framerates.
     
  17. fufsgfen

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    gtx1060 6GB will run game too, you need to turn off ssao and dynamic reflections and maybe run game at normal, but set textures to high, that way it should run at 60fps at italy as long as CPU is up to it, with Ryzen 5 slight overclock might help, but also developers have mentioned about future optimizations so you should be fine with Ryzen 5 1600X and gtx1060 6GB model.

    It will not run maximum details though, but will run game 60fps pretty much always with normal details without ssao and dynamic reflections.

    Hopefully with that you can have 3200Mhz CL14 Trident Z DDR4 memory, 16GB of it as that will help with performance, I think spending on that is more important than spending on GPU, in order to avoid getting bottlenecks.

    You need 1070 if you want to run at maximum details, but settings I mentioned should work out with given hardware, if anything slight overclock of CPU might be needed.

    One of the hard places at italy runs without putting up a sweat with i7-6700 and gtx1080 with little adjusting of settings, Ryzen 5 1600X and gtx1080 should also easily do this:
    upload_2019-1-4_7-39-11.png

    Settings that have adjusted for easy to run yet not much lower visual appearance than running game on high graphics:
    upload_2019-1-4_7-37-25.png

    CPU load is bit high on one thread, but I had lot of software running too to help simulate weaker single core performance, you need 4 cores to Italy:
    upload_2019-1-4_7-37-6.png

    Dynamic reflections and ssao are killers though, dynamic reflections are what you need for mirrors, but keeping distance at 80 meters or 60 meters helps a lot, but you can play without those just fine, if that is reasonable for you, then you save a lot of money on GPU and CPU.

    If you give up from need to run 60fps, then anything is possible, running game at 30fps would allow almost anything to run game just fine.
     
  18. Shotgun Chuck

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    I'm going to try to get a 1070 if at all possible as to me dynamic reflections are actually kind of important; probably the biggest single advance in BeamNG's graphics ever, but there are multiple types of 1070s (Ti & etc.) and I don't really know what the difference between them is. Also a steady 60 100% of the time is not completely necessary but it needs to run fast enough that doesn't look totally jank (or at least no more jank than BeamNG footage usually does after YouTube gets through murdering it).
     
  19. fufsgfen

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    1070 is enough good, 1070 Ti is then pretty close to what 1080 is and that starts to be overkill.

    If keeping dynamic reflections at 80 meters or less distance, 1060 might do fine, sadly I don't have experience from that card, but considering power usage of my gtx1080, I would say that with posted settings and dynamic reflections at such low distance, it should work out, but without gtx1080 on my paws, I can't test to tell. Afaik though gtx1060 should do around 50-55% of what gtx1080 does, that last percentage on GPU line of my screenshot. (there are more to it though, but it gets complex real fast)

    If you can get 1070 with close to cost of 1060, then go for it, also maybe 2nd hand is also something to consider to cut the costs.

    Just avoid founders editions and turbo models, you want 2 or 3 fans in it, other ones tend to be noisy bummers.
     
  20. Harkin Labs Gaming

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    I have an i7 4700K @3.6 Ghz, 12 GB of RAM (DDR4 I believe), and an EVGA 1070 SC. I used to record videos using Bandicam, and I could get around 60 fps with 2 or 3 cars on normal maps like WCA or Utah while recording. I haven't tested on Italy while recording, but after I spawn 2 cars without recording the game starts to lag a slight amount.
     
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